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  • Snivystorm
    Snivystorm closed this thread because:
    Debate resolved - best to avoid more controversy.
    07:49, September 11, 2017

    Spoiler warning - This discussion will be talking about a controversial topic that happened in the Left Behind DLC. Do not read ahead if you have not played the game. Also, this may spark some debates and unkind arguments so please try to keep this as civilized as possible. Also, I may swear now and then, so please excuse my language, but this has gotten me furious.

    Anyway, I'll begin to cover this topic and what I and many other supporters think about this. Okay, so many of you know that Riley and Ellie both kissed in the Left Behind DLC. Personally, I remember reading about it, but I thought they meant like a kiss on the cheek after Riley was bit or something. However, the more I played the game and realized the chemistry between the two teenagers, I began to speculate that they very well might kiss on the lips when the time came. Any who, the two girls did kiss and I, personally, thought it was adorable and cute. If anything, it made me sympathize for Ellie even more because it wasn't just her friend that died, it was someone she really cared about and so many people are overlooking that. For you to say that the kiss ruined the whole game, I got to wonder how you even got through life without being miserable.

    So, let me say this: For most of you who are saying that Ellie isn't a lesbian for kissing Riley and that she was just "in-the-moment" and "super excited" that Riley was staying - No. Do you kiss you friends on the mouths every now and then when you're excited for them and say, "Oh no, I'm not gay, I'm just super excited."? Didn't think so, and if you do, you need to reevaluate yourselves and this game.

    People turn really ignorant when they talk about something they just don't understand. For instance, people aren't considering this post-apocalyptic world Ellie and Riley live in. You know times are tough, "morals" and "teachings" aren't the same anymore, and once two girls kiss, these "fans" forget that and turn completely clicker-insane (blind like them as well). What I'm trying to get at is that this is a completely different world that Ellie and Riley were born into and I'm pretty sure bull like "gay is wrong" wasn't taught to them growing up. All they've done is board at a military school and see bloodshed. So they don't see each other as "lesbian teenagers" they just see each other as two individuals that are completely in love with one another and I think that's awesome, because that's exactly how reality would work. Another thing people seem to not acknowledge is that there are other girls out there who actually feel this way today.

    NOW, to the people who are calling something like this "cliche", you must be losing your heads. If something like this was so cliche, it'd be okay with everyone. However, it's not okay with everyone so therefore, it's not a cliche; It's something that is rarely seen: Two young female protagonists, one who isn't busty and over-sexualized, and the other, who is African American; I believe this is a subconscious reason why most people act up. I bet if it were two blond women with really big boobs and and mini-skirts and tank tops, the world would throw a party for it. But it's not, and that's why people are so upset. People may want to lie and say it isn't true, but it completely is. It's how America is.

    It's always like that in entertainment, when something new is shown to the public they try not to understand it simply because they don't and it ticks me off. Use the thing inside your head people, it works. It was something new and adorable, and I support it one-hundred percent and I'm glad NaughtyDog did it. All the homophobes and racists who are saying ignorant crap can close the door on their way out.

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    • Klock101
      Klock101 removed this reply because:
      22:57, February 18, 2014
      This reply has been removed
    • How am i a homophobe and a racist for thinking that this dlc was a cheap move by naughtydog to pander to certain political groups for profit? 

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    • Klock101
      Klock101 removed this reply because:
      22:57, February 18, 2014
      This reply has been removed
    • Klock101
      Klock101 removed this reply because:
      22:57, February 18, 2014
      This reply has been removed
    • I don't totally agree that Ellie is a lesbian. I my opinion (and i have said that way too many times already) Ellie loves people because of their character and who they are, regardless of their gender or race.

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    • Erhaby wrote:
      How am i a homophobe and a racist for thinking that this dlc was a cheap move by naughtydog to pander to certain political groups for profit? 


      Your Not It's Just People Name Calling Thats All . I Think She Is A Lesbian/Bi (Nothing Wrong With That) But It Was A  Pandering Moment

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    • Erhaby wrote:
      How am i a homophobe and a racist for thinking that this dlc was a cheap move by naughtydog to pander to certain political groups for profit? 

      Bro, nonono. The comment was directed to people who made homophobic and racist comments towards the game because of the whole situation. It wasn't personally towards you, Jesus, lol. 

      If you hated the game for that reason and that reason only, then this topic isn't even for you. As you can see, it's only targeted towards the people who based their whole like for the game on that one situation.

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    • Gear3ful wrote: I don't totally agree that Ellie is a lesbian. I my opinion (and i have said that way too many times already) Ellie loves people because of their character and who they are, regardless of their gender or race.

      Ha, I'm really beginning to like you.

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    • RyanJE wrote:

      Erhaby wrote:
      How am i a homophobe and a racist for thinking that this dlc was a cheap move by naughtydog to pander to certain political groups for profit? 


      Your Not It's Just People Name Calling Thats All . I Think She Is A Lesbian/Bi (Nothing Wrong With That) But It Was A  Pandering Moment

      How is it name calling? If I'm a racist, I'm a racist right?

      Anyway, I thought it was adorable.

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    • Sounds kind of like that game... Gone Home I think it was.  That game was utter BS and the only reason it got any good ratings [9.5 on Gamespot... lulz] was for it's political message- but it wasn't a game.  A House simulator is more accurate.

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    • 76.174.148.59 wrote:
      Sounds kind of like that game... Gone Home I think it was.  That game was utter BS and the only reason it got any good ratings [9.5 on Gamespot... lulz] was for it's political message- but it wasn't a game.  A House simulator is more accurate.

      I actually heard that game was pretty good and people had been making a lot of jokes about the Gone Home being ripped off by NaughtyDog, aha. Althought I'm not really much into those time of games, I'd like to watch a gameplay just to see how it is. 

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    • I thought it was great and sweet. I don't think it necessarly makes either of them "gay" but just shows they love each other, in a very deep and profound way. I wouldn't say she is straight, gay or bi and from the game I don't think it matter, it just showed their undying love for each other. 

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    • It's not that they're being homophobic (though, yes, that is probably mixed in there too) it's just... people don't like it. It's a matter of opinion and how you interpret things. don't like the idea of romance that much, so I can totally sympathise with them all. I would have much preferred it if they'd stay as friends.

      I still think that it's an amazing DLC, but I personally prefer Riley and Ellie as friends, not girlfriends (or whatever). And it just seems incredibly cheap to me that ND did it like that. Like they threw in a romance for Ellie for the sake of it and, oh, y'know what, let's make her a Lesbian and with a black girl because let's just jam the point across a bit more we don't discriminate and blah blah blah.

      Okay, that sounded a bit douchy, but the point still stands.

      It's like ND were trying too hard to make a point and at the same time dragged Ellie along with them.

      I'm not racist or homophobic or whatever lables people are gonna try and stick on me for saying all this, but it's a matter of personal opinon. That was the only bad bit of the DLC for me because it just... didn't feel right. It felt too forced.

      They were perfectly happy being friends then wham, throw in a kiss.

      And, to address your point about same-sex relationships, it's just as likely the idea would never have even crossed their minds. Het relationships are many times more common and the only other character known to be gay is Bill, who didn't live inside any of the quarantine zones. So it's just as likely that the thought that, yeah, I could fall in love with another girl/boy hadn't even crossed their minds because they won't have had any contact with gays - or, at least, people who they know are gay.

      I mean, they're brought up in soldier camps. Brought up to fight. The idea of falling in love and settling down likely didn't even cross their minds. 

      Idk, feel free to ignore me or whatever. Those are just my thoughts.

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    • ^  I agree with you W.C. 188.28.196.180 100% :) and for those who don't accept get bashed and accused of hating gays with is not true. Unfortunately, there are some people who really have great hatred for gays and even wanted them dead. And I also preferred  Ellie and Riley to be friends only, too. But I afraid her popluarity might drop a little because of this. I still like Ellie, though. :) Overall, the DLC was really good. :) Good Job, ND!! P.S. I'm not racist either. LOL!!!

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    • I have to agree with the people saying it was pandering or political bs that companies throw in to get more people (*cough* Anders *cough* Dragon Age 2 *cough*). I mean in the game for the most part she just seems too...happy-go-lucky for me to have lost someone you feel that way about.

      I mean think about it, killing someone you love is probably gona scar you more that killing a friend, no matter how much you care about said friend as long as it doesn't reach romantic envolvement.

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    • Woah, thought I'd already responded here, but I guess I failed to send it (I apologize if it randomly shows up later and I'm restating myself...)

      Anywho, I too thought the kiss was adorable. It was a heartwarming, tender moment. In those few seconds just before the kiss, I even found myself thinking "just kiss her, ya big lug," but then I was still kind of shocked when she actually did. And I remember also being excited because I was actually seeing something I'd never seen before in a game. It was a great love story but also age-appropriate. A lot of Romeo and Juliet undertones, too. 

      I don't understand the people saying that this is "pandering," and has a "political agenda." It's not political just to acknowledge that people exist. I'd assume that any reasonably socialized adult personally knows at least one gay person and black person, and it's not like these people are a super rare breed of pokemon or something, so naturally these people are going to have stories written about them sometimes. I mean, it's not like Ellie and Riley were waving around rainbow flags and telling the player what political party they should join or anything, they were just living their lives and not asking anything of the player.

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    • 188.28.196.180 wrote: It's not that they're being homophobic (though, yes, that is probably mixed in there too) it's just... people don't like it. It's a matter of opinion and how you interpret things. don't like the idea of romance that much, so I can totally sympathise with them all. I would have much preferred it if they'd stay as friends...

      All, I'm trying to say is that, look at the game from the perspective the two characters are in. I mean, whether or not Naughtydog threw the kiss in there it shouldn't make a difference honestly. It just shouldn't. Like, MayonnEgg said, it isn't like she's going around promoting that she likes to mess with girls.

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    • Not to mention, there were some really perverted comments people would leave about the two girls. Like, really disturbing things that you shouldn't really say to a fourteen and sixteen year old. I know they're fictional characters, but they look very real.

      I don't want to go jamming my beliefs down people's throats. I mean, I understand everyone has their opinions, but I just wanted to straighten some things out.

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    • I hear ingorant comments like , Joel need to give Ellie some D, David should have raped her,  Riley is one ugly n-word, Ellie is a little dyke b-word. Ellie sure love to hang out with black people, don't she? I mean really?!? It okay to expressed opinions but comments like these make them look really STUPID!!!

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    • At the very least Ellie is bisexual, no biggie. The chemistry was there, and they got the moment right, and made the whole experience just that little more bittersweet, in fact, it drew me in to such a degree that during the escape sequence I wanted to escape, not for the sake of the playthrough of the game, moreso for them to spend just that little bit longer together despite the fact I knew full well the outcome already. Now that's powerful stuff, and in all honesty, if there were to be a sequel, I'd be more than happy, just to experience the depth and bredth of emotions which are carried by these characters that have achieved what very few fictional worlds do. Make me care.

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    • Ellie is a victim of circumstance ,,if her best friend Riley had been a boy she would do the same thing .  
      Ashley-Johnson

      Ellie

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    • Don't see why sexuality matters in that world. The entire DLC there's hints that they were more than friends at a previous point. The only reason people would miss it is if they're bad at social cues. Hell there's a point where Riley tells Ellie that she is the only person that could stop her from going to the Fireflies. Did the bell just not go off there? I mean would you not do something you wanted to do your entire life just because of your best friend? My best friend is like my brother, but if he told me not to follow my dream, I'd do it anyway.

      Would this be such an issue if it was a young white male? No it wouldn't because everyone would see it as normal. Well it's world where things AREN'T normal. Ellie grew up in a time where if you didn't have fungus growing inside you and you weren't trying to kill her, you were generally okay. It didn't matter if you loved someone of the same sex or different race or a combination, so long as you survived and didn't screw anybody else over. Half the people complaining about homosexuality and all that probably jerk off to some form of it. 

      I doubt ND was pandering, simply because they aren't afraid of strong, female characters. They're also not afraid to make a strong black female character. Marlene was a great example of it. The only reasons people are saying it's pandering is because either A. they're not sure how it makes them feel or just had a minor distaste for it or B. Don't like the direction ND went with it because they're most likely homophobic and are going to say it's pandering because it's easier to say that than it is to explain why they find homosexuality wrong. The vast majority probably fit into A, but I'm going to say the most vocal outcriers belong in B.

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    • this reminds me of when it came out that the people who made the Tomb Raider remake last year wanted to make Lara into a lesbian and everyone freaked the hell out over it. Ellie kissed Riley, ND said Ellie is Bi, and now the internet is freaking out because a gaming company made a protagonist like that. Personally, I am glad for ND for doing that, it was a bold move and it's nice to see something different is every game going to be like this from now on? Hell no. Is this a sign society is changing? It should, but I have seen so many people freaking out, claiming TLOU is promoting homosexuality and it's just stupid. It was an innocent kiss, and who cares if they're in love with each other? Let them be happy (oh wait one of them is dead.) What I mean is, it's not like it was SUPER CHANGING to the plot. It was alrighty hinted in dialouge.

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    • Jim Logan wrote:
      this reminds me of when it came out that the people who made the Tomb Raider remake last year wanted to make Lara into a lesbian and everyone freaked the hell out over it. Ellie kissed Riley, ND said Ellie is Bi, and now the internet is freaking out because a gaming company made a protagonist like that. Personally, I am glad for ND for doing that, it was a bold move and it's nice to see something different is every game going to be like this from now on? Hell no. Is this a sign society is changing? It should, but I have seen so many people freaking out, claiming TLOU is promoting homosexuality and it's just stupid. It was an innocent kiss, and who cares if they're in love with each other? Let them be happy (oh wait one of them is dead.) What I mean is, it's not like it was SUPER CHANGING to the plot. It was alrighty hinted in dialouge.


      I just want to point out that Lara has been established as straight, and while it's dumb to freakout about Lara Croft being a lesbian, there is some amount of keeping things canon and not creating plot holes. That's not the reason people freaked but, ya know. You're right about Ellie though. That kiss didn't change anything she did or achieved in the main storyline at all. 

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    • Well Tomb Raider 2013 was a reboot to the series, they wanted to make changes and distance themselves from the other games. But yeah you get my point.

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    • I think I like her more now

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    • I think in a way it fits her character better anyway

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    • Thanks for all the other previous comments. It's interesting reading a lot of your thoughts.

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    • I just don't get why people can't accept that Ellie is gay, it's already been confirmed by the creators of TLOU so haters better deal with it :)

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    • Fanofwiki wrote:
      Ellie is a victim of circumstance ,,if her best friend Riley had been a boy she would do the same thing .  
      Ashley-Johnson

      Ellie

      Oh, yeah, thats right. 

      Neil Drunkman confirmed that Ellie is attracted to Riley. So she isn't a "victim" or anything. I mean, yeah, maybe if Riley was a guy she knew all along. But if you're saying that she would've just done it to anyone, then you don't know what you're talking about, lol. 

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    • Lawadnorder wrote:
      Don't see why sexuality matters in that world. The entire DLC there's hints that they were more than friends at a previous point. The only reason people would miss it is if they're bad at social cues. Hell there's a point where Riley tells Ellie that she is the only person that could stop her from going to the Fireflies. Did the bell just not go off there? I mean would you not do something you wanted to do your entire life just because of your best friend? My best friend is like my brother, but if he told me not to follow my dream, I'd do it anyway.

      Yeah seriously... For the people who were so surprised by the kiss... I feel like they must not have been playing very close attention. I mean, especially after that photo booth, I was getting all kinds of "awkward first date" vibes. Hopefully the people who didn't see those social cues are just really young (like, 12) and just need some more life experience... 

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    • The fact is , if Ellie's gay ,  nobody should have a problem with that ,,,,but it does'nt take away from the fact that she   was   a victim of circumstance,,,,,,,,
      Ashley-Johnson

      Ellie

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    • Here is the thing-Ellie and Riley were romantically attracted to each other, so in that sense they were lesbians (ND confirmed it). And last night (on AMA Reddit) it was also confirmed that if Riley was male, nothing would have changed (relationship, kissing) which means Ellie is indifferent to gender.

      Would they become lovers? Maybe, we don't know and will never know because Riley is dead, but we do know that they loved each other, more than friends.  Is she attracted to females only? Perphaps, we don't know. Could Ellie still fall for a guy if she loved him? Maybe, but we also don't know (she was friends with Sam).

      I my honest opinion, i think that Ellie doesn't differentiate, she just loves, no matter what the gender is.

      Are both sides happy now? 

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    • Draksler82 wrote:
      Here is the thing-Ellie and Riley were romantically attracted to each other, so in that sense they were lesbians (ND confirmed it). And last night (on AMA Reddit) it was also confirmed that if Riley was male, nothing would have changed (relationship, kissing) which means Ellie is indifferent to gender.



      Hey everyone ,you know how much i like to say i told you so...   or at least now you do.

      I told you so...

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    • http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/652686-the-last-of-us/68632757

      And yet people are still arguing about it...unbelievable.

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    • Draksler82 wrote:
      Here is the thing-Ellie and Riley were romantically attracted to each other, so in that sense they were lesbians (ND confirmed it). And last night (on AMA Reddit) it was also confirmed that if Riley was male, nothing would have changed (relationship, kissing) which means Ellie is indifferent to gender.

      I took that differently. I think he was just saying that he didn't make Ellie gay "just because" (or to be "political" or whatever), but because they wanted to tell a love story (his words,) and up the stakes with their relationship. They didn't want Ellie and Riley to merely be friends. So, if they'd originally made Riley a male character in the beginning, then Ellie would have still had to kiss him, to get the love story angle, and her character would have just been straight. He's talking about HIS decisions and motivations in crafting the story and characters, not saying that Ellie as a character NOW is indifferent to gender. They're saying that in their decision to make the story romantic, THEY were indifferent to the gender of the characters.

      I say this because I read the AMA as well, and also interviews where he plainly states that Ellie is gay (like, he uses the word gay to describe her.) I used to be more open to being all "well, we don't really know for sure, she could be bi or whatever..." but seeing more and more interviews with Neil, he plainly describes her as gay, so I don't think there's meant to be any ambiguity. 

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    • 67.185.234.48 wrote:
      I just don't get why people can't accept that Ellie is gay, it's already been confirmed by the creators of TLOU so haters better deal with it :)

      Actually they confirmed that Ellie had feelings for Riley, not that she was lesbian. In case you didn't notice, she was interested in Sam later on. So she's more than likely bi. Does it really matter though?

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    • "I mean, it's not like Ellie and Riley were waving around rainbow flags and telling the player what political party they should join or anything, they were just living their lives and not asking anything of the player."

      ^ I couldn't have said it better myself, i was surprised how quickly people turned on Ellie purely because of an innocent kiss


      I fail to see how Ellies sexuality matters whatsoever in terms of peoples opinions on her, but i think it's still up for discussion. Obviously Ellie and Riley were romantically involved with each other, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they are both lesbians, they could easily be bi, or simply girls who were straight but in love with that one girl.

      Personally i'm going with bi, purely because i don't think she cares about gender. What people have to realise is that she lives in a post apocalyptic world which has a LOT fewer people than we do now, couple that with the fact that most people in the world would rather let her die than put themselves in danger and not give it a second thought, and it makes sense that when she finds the one decent person who looks out for her she develops deep feelings for them, regardless of gender.


      tl;dr she could die any day, why would she care if her partner had a ding-dong



      Either way, whatever she is, i don't think less of her or the story for it, in fact, i actually think it was a good addition. It was so cute to see and really added another level of feeling to the story

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    • MayonnEgg wrote:
      Draksler82 wrote:
      Here is the thing-Ellie and Riley were romantically attracted to each other, so in that sense they were lesbians (ND confirmed it). And last night (on AMA Reddit) it was also confirmed that if Riley was male, nothing would have changed (relationship, kissing) which means Ellie is indifferent to gender.
      I took that differently. I think he was just saying that he didn't make Ellie gay "just because" (or to be "political" or whatever), but because they wanted to tell a love story (his words,) and up the stakes with their relationship. They didn't want Ellie and Riley to merely be friends. So, if they'd originally made Riley a male character in the beginning, then Ellie would have still had to kiss him, to get the love story angle, and her character would have just been straight. He's talking about HIS decisions and motivations in crafting the story and characters, not saying that Ellie as a character NOW is indifferent to gender. They're saying that in their decision to make the story romantic, THEY were indifferent to the gender of the characters.

      I say this because I read the AMA as well, and also interviews where he plainly states that Ellie is gay (like, he uses the word gay to describe her.) I used to be more open to being all "well, we don't really know for sure, she could be bi or whatever..." but seeing more and more interviews with Neil, he plainly describes her as gay, so I don't think there's meant to be any ambiguity. 

      Thank you, I never thought from this point of view :) I've also read those interviewes with Druckmann, but what I've got from them is this: they weren't trying to make a general statement about Ellie's sexuality. Let me explain. In his statements, Neil always talks about Riley and Ellie, their relationship, their affection. It was about them, and ONLY them. It wasn't about Ellie's sexual orientation in general. It was a statement of love to one particular person, which just happened to be a girl (in my opinion nothing would have changed if Riley was a boy, but that is just my speculation and i can be wrong). Outside their relationship, that kiss doesn't tell us much, because in the main game Ellie has no romantic relationships with anyone in particular at all.

      One the other hand (this is what i assume you think) if ND really was going to make her lesbian-only, that one kiss didn't really make a statement, it just opens up a possibility. 

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    • MayonnEgg wrote:
      Draksler82 wrote:
      Here is the thing-Ellie and Riley were romantically attracted to each other, so in that sense they were lesbians (ND confirmed it). And last night (on AMA Reddit) it was also confirmed that if Riley was male, nothing would have changed (relationship, kissing) which means Ellie is indifferent to gender.
      I took that differently. I think he was just saying that he didn't make Ellie gay "just because" (or to be "political" or whatever), but because they wanted to tell a love story (his words,) and up the stakes with their relationship. They didn't want Ellie and Riley to merely be friends. So, if they'd originally made Riley a male character in the beginning, then Ellie would have still had to kiss him, to get the love story angle, and her character would have just been straight. He's talking about HIS decisions and motivations in crafting the story and characters, not saying that Ellie as a character NOW is indifferent to gender. They're saying that in their decision to make the story romantic, THEY were indifferent to the gender of the characters.

      I say this because I read the AMA as well, and also interviews where he plainly states that Ellie is gay (like, he uses the word gay to describe her.) I used to be more open to being all "well, we don't really know for sure, she could be bi or whatever..." but seeing more and more interviews with Neil, he plainly describes her as gay, so I don't think there's meant to be any ambiguity. 

      But the again, Bruce Straley said that it wouldn't have been different if Riley would have been a boy in American Dreams.

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    • So this one scene is what caused the huge backlash ? I mesn I thought it was alright but I mean the signs were there and I could see it even with my poor social skills. Though I like that games can cause this kind of thing.

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    • It's pretty sad that some people seem to think that having characters in video games that aren't all straight white people is "pandering"

      Humans are diverse. Accept that.

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    • Gear3ful wrote:

      But the again, Bruce Straley said that it wouldn't have been different if Riley would have been a boy in American Dreams.

      Yeah, they would have done the love story no matter what. They were'nt talking about how Ellie as a character feels/ her orientation, but about how they approached the storymaking process. People had been accusing them of playing the whole gay angle for "political" reasons or whatever, and Bruce was just saying "no, actually, we just realized that it had to happen because we'd already established Riley as a girl. WE still would have taken the story in that direction if she'd been a boy." They're not saying anything about Ellie as a character, they're clarifying their own motivations in writing/crafting the story itself.

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    • MayonnEgg wrote:
      Gear3ful wrote:

      But the again, Bruce Straley said that it wouldn't have been different if Riley would have been a boy in American Dreams.

      Yeah, they would have done the love story no matter what. They were'nt talking about how Ellie as a character feels/ her orientation, but about how they approached the storymaking process. People had been accusing them of playing the whole gay angle for "political" reasons or whatever, and Bruce was just saying "no, actually, we just realized that it had to happen because we'd already established Riley as a girl. WE still would have taken the story in that direction if she'd been a boy." They're not saying anything about Ellie as a character, they're clarifying their own motivations in writing/crafting the story itself.

      Well, i suppose you can see it both ways.     

      Here is the link for the question and the answer: http://i.imgur.com/sVX0kCk.jpg?1

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    • After reading the whole AMA discussion again i think that Bruce's answer was pretty straightforward (no ambiguity), but maybe that is just my interpretation. Speaking of interpretations...you guys should watch Greg Miller's latest Up At Noon at IGN. He had this debate with Ashley Johnson about that scene. Just let me know what you think. 

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    • Draksler82 wrote:

      Thank you, I never thought from this point of view :) I've also read those interviewes with Druckmann, but what I've got from them is this: they weren't trying to make a general statement about Ellie's sexuality. Let me explain. In his statements, Neil always talks about Riley and Ellie, their relationship, their affection. It was about them, and ONLY them. It wasn't about Ellie's sexual orientation in general. It was a statement of love to one particular person, which just happened to be a girl (in my opinion nothing would have changed if Riley was a boy, but that is just my speculation and i can be wrong). Outside their relationship, that kiss doesn't tell us much, because in the main game Ellie has no romantic relationships with anyone in particular at all.

      One the other hand (this is what i assume you think) if ND really was going to make her lesbian-only, that one kiss didn't really make a statement, it just opens up a possibility. 

      Ah, okay, I get you. Thanks for the thoughtful response!

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    • Gear3ful wrote:

      Well, i suppose you can see it both ways.     

      Here is the link for the question and the answer: http://i.imgur.com/sVX0kCk.jpg?1

      Ah! For some reason I was still thinking about Neil, even though you said you were talking about Bruce, lol. I can see how that can be interpreted as you said. 

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    • The fault is mine. I wasn't specific enough. I've said that it was ND's statment when in fact it was just Bruce Straley's. Sorry, my bad.

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    • Food for thought: How many times do you see a clearly forced love-relationship or kiss between a man and a woman in movies or shows, that should really not be there in the first place because said man and woman have not shown any cue of being interested in each other at any given time?

      And does anyone vocally express their distate on the fact that a movie includes a non-necessary hetero kiss/relationship between a usually white man and white woman? No. But the moment someone has the balls-of-steel to portray clear and obvious social-cues and kisses and relationships in a casual manner (not a look at me I'm gay! Or look at me I'm not white!) between a man of color and a white woman, or a white man with a woman of color, or a homosexual male or woman, whether white or colored, in movies, shows, or videogames, a large amount of the population decides to express distate, ignorance, and hatred.

      People will accept a non-necessary and forced relationship or kiss over one that is justifiable, and cute, and that has all of the right reasons of being portrayed in the selected medium.

      Let Ellie and Riley have their kiss. If the creator of TLOU admits she is a lesbian, then she is a lesbian and it is thus not up for debate. Perhaps if he had not admitted this, there could be speculations on whether Ellie is one of the following; bisexual or pansexual but not straight.

      Why?

      First, there are obvious cues and moments in Left Behind (I am unsure of American Dream because I did not read up on it) where Ellie or even Riley show affection for one another as stated by many other users here. Meaning that their kiss was justified, and not a out-of-the-blue teenager trying kisses on the same sex situation. (In the photo booth, it clearly feels like they are on an awkward date (as stated). Also, as stated, why would Riley give up on her dream if they were only friends? It does not make sense.)

      Second, the moment leading to the kiss has the right tension and insecurity one would feel before going forth with it. Surely many who have played the DLC and were not aware of the kiss felt this tension between the characters, and crossed their fingers that it would happen because... why the hell not? It can happen. We LGBTQA exist too.

      Third, Ellie did not show any romantic interest in Sam (sorry guys and girls and those who are neutral). In TLOU it could be said that Ellie is glad, giddy, or happy to have a friend her age again, or close, which is very understandable. This does not mean that she has to show affection and love and desire though.

      Finally, if Riley was a male (and possibly white) little to no players would complain about the kiss, whether or not the cues and affection are present or the creator forced it like so many shows and movies.

      A large amount of the players would not bother to question Ellie's sexuality if she had kissed male Riley. There would not have been a backlash where people would claim that there is a slight possibility of Ellie being bisexual, lesbian, or pansexual.

      If ND confirmed that she was straight, no one, or not many, would bother trying to get people to believe she could still be anything but straight.

      In conclusion; the creator's comment, the scene in Left behind, and the blatant lack of romantic interest in TLOU with Sam should leave players with no doubts about Ellie's sexuality (homosexual if truly admited by ND, or bisexual or pansexual if not admited.)

      PS: Please understand that Ellie remains the same girl we got to know in TLOU no matter who she loves. There is no use complaining and denying. LGBTQA people exist, and have the right to be portrayed in any medium just as heterosexual males and females are.

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    • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VST2sz13Udwhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?   Ashley Johnson disagrees with Neil Druckmann and Bruce S.

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    • Fanofwiki wrote:
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VST2sz13Udwhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?   Ashley Johnson disagrees with Neil Druckmann and Bruce S.

      Nowhere in that interview does she say she disagrees with either of them. She hinted that in some ways they may see it from different angles, but she was very vague, and diplomatic, really. She's sounding like Bruce really, with the whole "who cares?" answer. I think she just didn't want to say anything too declarative because it's really not her place to say- she's not the writer of this character. 

      In the end, I'd say that the people who actually wrote and literally created this character are the real authorities on the matter. Ashley's performance is still ultimately manipulated by the director (especially given that this is motion capture, not straight live-action performances... things like facial expressions aren't copied exactly.) There's things that Neil knows about this character that nobody else knows, because she's his own creation. 

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    • MayonnEgg wrote:
      Fanofwiki wrote:
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VST2sz13Udwhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?   Ashley Johnson disagrees with Neil Druckmann and Bruce S.
      Nowhere in that interview does she say she disagrees with either of them. She hinted that in some ways they may see it from different angles, but she was very vague, and diplomatic, really. She's sounding like Bruce really, with the whole "who cares?" answer. I think she just didn't want to say anything too declarative because it's really not her place to say- she's not the writer of this character. 

      In the end, I'd say that the people who actually wrote and literally created this character are the real authorities on the matter. Ashley's performance is still ultimately manipulated by the director (especially given that this is motion capture, not straight live-action performances... things like facial expressions aren't copied exactly.) There's things that Neil knows about this character that nobody else knows, because she's his own creation.

      Bad luck Druckmann.

      Tries to write Ellie as a gay character and leave it as much unambigous as possible...

      Everbody has a different opinion on this matter, even the voice-actor that played Ellie herself...

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    • One question: why are all those people that support LGBT community saying Ellie is gay/bi or homsexual/potentially bisexual. Just curious...

      Becuase if devs said that she is gay, than she is gay. No potentially bisexual, bisexual, pansexual,etc. Just gay. Are you affraid that there is a sequel where something will change and you are not entirely sure? Is it because of the homophobes? Or are there other reasons?

      Because if Brad Pitt says he is heterosexual, than he IS heterosexual, no potentially bisexual, pansexual, whatever. If you support something, than support it fully.

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    • 195.210.220.20 wrote:
      One question: why are all those people that support LGBT community saying Ellie is gay/bi or homsexual/potentially bisexual. Just curious...

      Becuase if devs said that she is gay, than she is gay. No potentially bisexual, bisexual, pansexual,etc. Just gay. Are you affraid that there is a sequel where something will change and you are not entirely sure? Is it because of the homophobes? Or are there other reasons?

      Because if Brad Pitt says he is heterosexual, than he IS heterosexual, no potentially bisexual, pansexual, whatever. If you support something, than support it fully.

      Because we are not entirely sure what Ellie's sexual orientation is...    For example, I believe that Ellie is bisexual, because I think that she feels attracted to people because of their character. Also, Bruce Straley said that it wouldn't have been different if Riley would have been a boy...

      Where as MayonEgg for example, thinks that Ellie is gay, because Neil Druckmann has repeatedly said so...  

      (even though, and this is just wat i believe, i think that Ellie is attracted to someone's character)

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    • 195.210.220.20 wrote:
      One question: why are all those people that support LGBT community saying Ellie is gay/bi or homsexual/potentially bisexual. Just curious...

      Becuase if devs said that she is gay, than she is gay. No potentially bisexual, bisexual, pansexual,etc. Just gay. Are you affraid that there is a sequel where something will change and you are not entirely sure? Is it because of the homophobes? Or are there other reasons?

      Because if Brad Pitt says he is heterosexual, than he IS heterosexual, no potentially bisexual, pansexual, whatever. If you support something, than support it fully.

      I think those people are just ones who haven't read that particular interview with Neil where he says he wrote her as gay.

      Another reason I can think of is that sometimes people (esp peple outside of LGBT community) use the word gay to describe basically anyone who isn't heterosexual, so it includes pan/bi people as well (not proper use of the word, but it happens nonetheless.) So maybe they think Neil is maybe one of those people? I dunno.

      And the thing is, someone like Brad Pitt can declaratively say "I'm straight," because he's a real person. In the confines of a story, especially in a context like TLOU, it would feel out of place for Ellie to say something like "I'm gay," or to "come out." So it's not like it's impossible that Ellie may in the future end up being bisexual or something, so I think that they're just acknowledging that that possibility exists (even though there's no real evidence as of now of her being interested in guys romantically.) Doesn't mean that they "don't support it fully." The world isn't just this dichotomy of gay/straight, and I think people are just being respectful and acknowledging that bi/pan people exist.

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    • i've read his latest statement, that AMA thing (from start to finish). And you know what i think? I think that in the beginnig he was like:"Yes, she s gay and i think that we made it obvious." But when time went by and more questions flooded in, he realised that not everybody (in fact great many) didn't see it as he did (most saw it as Gear3ful did) and then he said:"We intended her to be gay, but i understand different interpretations, like with everything...it's up for interpretation, etc." At least to me that indicates that their plan didn't exactly work and they had to make specific statement after the dlc, that everyone should take it as cannon (that ellie is gay). To me, that is just bull****. What about all those that never read even one line in kotaku, gaygamer, ign? That just bought the dlc and saw it as they did? Are they wrong, because they interpret the source material differently?

      You know there are other words that he could use instead; like non-heterosexual, queer (good meaning). Because if you say gay or lesbian, that's pretty definitive answer.

      One last thing: ellie doesn't have to say:"I'm gay." Developer did that for her instead, which makes his statement as her real life as it possibly can. And we allways look for what we have now, not what we could potentially have (potentially she could also kiss a boy or giraffe, nobody talks about it because it didn't happen). If there is no further indication that she could be bisexual, then there is no need to speculate it.

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    • also to MayonnEgg

      I noticed that you used the same gay/bi option term yourself...so where do you stand ? You don't strike me as any of above options that you mentioned.

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    • Will this discussion never end for little Ellie? *sigh*.:) Personally I have wanted her to be asexual. I am not surprise that people don't agree with Druckmann about Ellie is gay. It just like people didn't agree with him about his take on the ending.:)

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    • 149.126.136.12 wrote:
      also to MayonnEgg

      I noticed that you used the same gay/bi option term yourself...so where do you stand ? You don't strike me as any of above options that you mentioned.

      I'm of the mind that we go with the information presented to us. Ellie has shown no interest in guys, but has shown a profound, romantic interest in girls. So with that information, I conclude that she's gay. I personally don't see the need to "speculate" about whether or not she may hypothetically connect with a male partner in the future because that information isn't there. I take it at face value, just as I take it at face value when the princess kisses prince charming that they're straight. I don't think that this kiss was thrown in to confuse people about Ellie's sexuality and to raise a million questions like it has.

      I sometimes use the gay/bi phrase just because yeah, that possibility is technically there, and I don't want it to seem like I'm saying that the world is only made up of people who are solely gay or straight. Theres a lot inbetween, but like I said, I don't really think that this particular moment is meant to make us speculate to that degree. To speculate at all, really. And then Neil said that he wrote the character as gay, so, I'd say end of story, lets all go home, personally. But here we are, still talking about it lol.

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    • I hope this message of my mine will be the last thing on this topic (but i suspect that probably not).

      In the end  it doesn't matter. Druckmann's opinion, Ashley's opinion, whatever opinion. The only thing that matters is how you experience the games as the player. How you interpret the story. Because in the end, source matterial should tell the story, not what you hear behind the scenes. If you think that she is gay, then fine. If you think that she is bisexual, also fine. Whatever you can come up with and source material doesn't disapprove-it's fine. Because that is all we have, and nothing else. 

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    • Draksler82 wrote:
      I hope this message of my mine will be the last thing on this topic (but i suspect that probably not).

      In the end  it doesn't matter. Druckmann's opinion, Ashley's opinion, whatever opinion. The only thing that matters is how you experience the games as the player. How you interpret the story. Because in the end, source matterial should tell the story, not what you hear behind the scenes. If you think that she is gay, then fine. If you think that she is bisexual, also fine. Whatever you can come up with and source material doesn't disapprove-it's fine. Because that is all we have, and nothing else. 

      YOU DON'T GET TO HAVE THE LAST WORD! lol. I agree with your point in general, that we should experience these great games for ourselves and not look too much to other sources for information. For instance, you should definately react to the ending of the main game for yourself before reading interviews or articles about it. 

      BUT, I don't think that something like someone's sexual orientation is something that you "interpret." It's just a characteristic of a person, like their age, where they grew up, etc. Ellie's age is established as 14 when she has that little in-game convo with Joel. Or, if we didn't know her age and Neil just said "it's 14," people would accept that as her canon age. Similarly, in my opinion, Ellie's orientation is revealed in her relationship to/kissing of Riley (that's not the full significance or purpose of that relationship, but the info is secondarily revealed nonetheless.) And in the fact the Neil said that she is gay.

      Like someone said above, she could hypothetically go on to kiss a boy or a girraffe (one could argue that she fell in love in that one scene! lol.) But that stuff hasn't happened. Kissing Riley actually happened. Everyone has the right to an interpretation, but not all interpretations are equally valid or likely. 

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    • (sigh, not the last post i guess) i disagree. i think that this dlc made it very clear that their kiss wasn't a friendship or plutonic one. All the interpretations from that point of view are false, but you could have easily acknowledged that from the source material, even without Neail saying that it was meant to be romantic. What bothers me is how can someone conclude that she is denfinitely lesbian only? Is it really that simple; just gay or straight, nothing else? Too me, saying that she is lesbian is as like when people said:"Well she is straight" before the dlc came out. How could you know that if she had no relationship in the game at all? And how can you suddenly say that she is only into girls based on one potential relationship (because lesbian is by it's very definition love for females ONLY). Riley and Ellie had the potential to become lovers, but that never happened because of that runners crashing the party. Maybe they would, maybe they wouldn't, we will never know. 

      To me, saying that she only likes girls is just as ignorant as saying that she is straight. 

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    • 149.126.130.234 wrote:
      (. What bothers me is how can someone conclude that she is denfinitely lesbian only? Is it really that simple; just gay or straight, nothing else? Too me, saying that she is lesbian is as like when people said:"Well she is straight" before the dlc came out. How could you know that if she had no relationship in the game at all? And how can you suddenly say that she is only into girls based on one potential relationship (because lesbian is by it's very definition love for females ONLY). Riley and Ellie had the potential to become lovers, but that never happened because of that runners crashing the party. Maybe they would, maybe they wouldn't, we will never know. 

      To me, saying that she only likes girls is just as ignorant as saying that she is straight. 

      Well, people were making sure to say "she's gay, or bisexual," until Neil said she was gay (or rather, that he "wrote her as gay.) 

      I don't see anything wrong really with people wanting to conclude, even without reading Neil's statement, that she's a lesbian. I mean, according to your logic, we can't conclude anyone is a lesbian unless they break the 4th wall and say "I'm a lesbian," or if we literally watch their entire life until they die, seeing if they engage with a male partner. These expectations are not realistic from a storytelling perspective. We have evidence that she likes girls. No evidence she likes guys. The only argument with actual solid evidence is lesbian. The possibility of bisexuality is there (sans Neil's comment) but it's just that- a possibility. Until more information is given to us (in the form of a sequel or something) it will remain that way.

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    • READ THIS-I do not hate on gays. honestly i dont give a shit about all this gay hating stuff on the news. just let them be how ever the hell they want to be. But i never thought of this until i finished left behind. (i pre orederd it :)) I think someone already said this but i think ellie could possibly be bisexual. Why, when you are leaving bills town and ellie has that (what i presume) playgirl magazine. but seeing that she didnt show any form of "excitement" when she was looking at it. but then again, that kiss though. i thought it was a bit strange that she did that but then again , in left behind she showed some sort of atractment to riley. i strongly believe that riley is not lesbian. if any of you have read american dreams (i have) ellie says to winston that she likes her. and last but not least. you have to remember how fucked up their environment is now. they probably dont even know what the hell lesbian means for gods sake. they probably dont understand how your gay and your not gay. everyone is hating on ellie just because shes gay?! seriously like go take a walk or somethin because who gives a shit. i dont.

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    • 1.) people are still making sure that she is gay/bi. go around and see it. that's because people use gay to describe everything that is non-heterosexual, which includes gay/lesbian, bisexual, pansexual, transexual. 

      2.) if there is a possibility, you should take it into consideration. Sorry, maybe it's just me being lawyer, but in my profession, i NEED to look on the subject from all angles. Also, there is no real evidence that Half-Life 3 will ever come out,but people still talk about it. I don't need (want) you to agree with me or Gear3ful (if he still thinks that she doesn't care about gender at least) on this subject, but we have different angles on this thing and that's it. I guess this will never change; unless if tlou2 ever comes out, but we don't know that. We'll just have to tolerate each other then.

      3.) maybe i said it wrong; i don't have a problem people discussing about Ellie's sexuality one way or another (as long as they don't deny that their kiss wasn't a romantic one), but i do have a problem with people saying things like:

      1.EXAMPLE: "Of course Ellie is gay, look how she dresses, she is a tomboy so that makes her a lesbian!" Really? There's been 20 years from freacking end of the world! There is probably not a lot of new clothes around and people have to resort to whatever they have. How does that make her anything?

      2.EXAMPLE: "I see now why Ellie+Sam thing would have never worked (SPOILERS: she is gay), hihi" No, just no. Ellie+Sam would have never worked either way because they showed no real interest in each other, AT ALL. What does that have to do with enyone's sexuality? They saw each other as friends and that's it. 

      3.EXAMPLE:"Now that Ellie is gay, she will separate from Joel and try to find some a** and pu***. She needs to get some!" Sorry, but that is as much disrespectful ass people saying:"Oh, she is not lesbian, she only needs a d***!" That wasn't the point of LB DLC. They had to make a love story so that players would understand how much she lost (the two being friends just wouldn't be enough). Riley just happened to be a girl, she was female long before they decided to go for a love relationship, and they couldn't just rewrite her as a male just to tell a beautifull story.

      this is my response, and i'm out

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    • Draksler82 wrote:

      2.) if there is a possibility, you should take it into consideration. Sorry, maybe it's just me being lawyer, but in my profession, i NEED to look on the subject from all angles. Also, there is no real evidence that Half-Life 3 will ever come out,but people still talk about it. I don't need (want) you to agree with me or Gear3ful (if he still thinks that she doesn't care about gender at least) on this subject, but we have different angles on this thing and that's it. I guess this will never change; unless if tlou2 ever comes out, but we don't know that. We'll just have to tolerate each other then.

      There's nothing wrong with keeping your mind open to possibilities. I didn't mean to suggest otherwise. In fact, at the photo booth scene, I remembered thinking once that Ellie may be interested in girls (I think way back in a forum here actually.) Then when the kiss happened, it wasn't so much shocking to me as it was adorable and heartfelt. Because I had remained open to that possibility.

      There's a difference between coming to actual conclusions and remaining open to possibilities that exist, though. I see nothing wrong, at all, with people saying "there's a possibility that Ellie is bi/pan/not strictly gay." The weird thing is when people CONCLUDE WITH UTTER CONFIDENCE that she is definitely also interested in guys, no doubt, when there's no evidence at all to support coming to that conclusion. It strikes me as odd and unnecessary, to do so many mental gymnastics just to be able to conclude that a fictional 14 yearl old girl will also kiss some dude in the future.

      + I don't think that your half-life 3 analogy is really equivalent, because people talk about that game because they really want it to happen, even though it doesn't exist yet (and because there's been the precedent of the first 2 games, nobody would ask for HL3 without the first 2 existing.) So... people really want and anticipate Ellie to be bisexual instead of gay? They highly anticipate her being with a guy later? I'd have to ask "uh, why?"

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    • yeah well my intention was never to indoctrinate anybody with false religion, really. it maybe reads like that, but really all i want is to put my spin on this thing (in the boundaries of what we can safely assume). and sometimes writing this down on pc is troubling, because telling your idea to person face to face would be so much easier, but well...what can we do, huh?

      well this escalated quickly. no, in no way did i want to say:"She should love guys because we expected that from the start!" actually i did not even consider it because that wasn't what i tried to say. all i wanted was to give a proper analogy for people having a debate where the ultimate outcome is uncertain. 

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    • @Drakler82, I really like your comment.:) I wish I can KUDOS you but I can't login LOL!!! That's why I have wanted Ellie to be a asexual character because these ridiculous comments that you mention. I guess people wanted Ellie in a skippy outfit. I thought maybe Sam did have a little teeny crush on Ellie. I heard comments similar to the last example like Joel need to give Ellie some D so she can stop thinking about girls or David should have raped. STUPID!!!!!! O.K. I'm done for real. :)

      p.s. I thought we were done with this discussion? What happened? :)

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    • Draksler82 wrote:
      yeah well my intention was never to indoctrinate anybody with false religion, really. it maybe reads like that, but really all i want is to put my spin on this thing (in the boundaries of what we can safely assume). and sometimes writing this down on pc is troubling, because telling your idea to person face to face would be so much easier, but well...what can we do, huh?

      well this escalated quickly. no, in no way did i want to say:"She should love guys because we expected that from the start!" actually i did not even consider it because that wasn't what i tried to say. all i wanted was to give a proper analogy for people having a debate where the ultimate outcome is uncertain. 

      Oh gosh, I wasn't saying you were one of those people. You and Gear3ful showed me that quote too from Bruce earlier, and explained your thoughts really well. Like I said before, there's nothing wrong with being open to possibilities. Honestly, in an ideal world, we wouldn't make any assumptions about things like orientation until it actually becomes relevant to a character.

      And I'm sure you wouldn't have any problem if we got a sequel or something and it was more firmly established that she was definitely a lesbian or something. The people I was talking about are the many, many people who for whatever reason, think that its impossible that Ellie is gay, because.... Just because. Because it makes them feel better to know she is also into guys? I dunno. It mystifys me, lol. 

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    • Still arguing about her sex orientation? Well,what you gonna fight about again after this? Bill is friggin' gay and that you guys gonna argue about it again? I mean it's obvious that she's gay,Neil said too.He's the writer and that he had said it,so it's weird if you guys still arguing....It's not like I don't like a debate about something in a game theory,but it has been confirmed that she's gay so why are you guys still arguing? I'm just saying? I'm chilled,not angry here,just answer my question,why are you still arguing though the result was out like days ago and you could see it.

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    • 98.67.182.223 wrote:
      @Drakler82, I really like your comment.:) I wish I can KUDOS you but I can't login LOL!!! That's why I have wanted Ellie to be a asexual character because these ridiculous comments that you mention. I guess people wanted Ellie in a skippy outfit. I thought maybe Sam did have a little teeny crush on Ellie. I heard comments similar to the last example like Joel need to give Ellie some D so she can stop thinking about girls or David should have raped. STUPID!!!!!! O.K. I'm done for real. :)

      p.s. I thought we were done with this discussion? What happened? :)

      Thank you! :) yeah i've seen that stupid comment somewhere on gamefaqs or neogaf. It was pointless, i guess somebody wasn't happy how things went down with Ellie and Riley so...well it doesn't matter cuzz David got what he deserved so no more of him or anything from him that starts with the d word ;P

      And to MayonnEgg (gosh i really don't know how to properly qoute each segment on this forum): Well i appreciate that. And no i have NO problem what so ever if ND goes that way in (possible) future instalments. I already told you what was my real problem in above examples so i won't go to that territory again. But what i'am sure of is that either way, ND won't do anything to Ellie's character if they don't think that it is relevant to the story. They don't answer to anyone; not to the homophobes, LGBT community, Sony or the last but not the least: us, fans. They do things because of the narrative and to tell the best story they can.

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    • ^ That seems like like a great ending for this discussion.   I really enjoyed reading throught the comments that I missed the last few days. I guess that almost everything that anyone wants to say on this topic has been said.

      Ps: Thank you for explaining your opinion on this thread, it was really interesting to look at the different arguments that different people had.

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    • Okay my two cents. When Ashley, Neil etc say "It doesn't matter if Riley or Ellie were male, the kiss would still happen." That doesn't change anything about the fact that they were both written as teenage girls in a post-apocalyptic world where yes, pathetic labels that society today forces us to adhere to one way or the other, DO NOT EXIST. In saying this though Neil who WROTE the game, thus EVERYTHING in said game comes from HIS mind primarily, wrote Ellie as a lesbian young woman. So at the end of the day YES Bruce directed the game during its development and he would have had creative input, but it was NEIL'S STORY being told.


      So at the end of the day if Neil say's Ellie is a lesbian.... She IS a lesbian.

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    • If Ellie's a lesbian, so be it, especially since it seems to be official that she is.  Prior, though, I didn't really think she was a lesbian, that that kiss was something circumstantial, as it is something girls do sometimes (because girls tend to express their emotions more than boys, either because it's a scientific fact or because of the familiar unwritten rules about gender roles).  I mean, I was 14 once, and I've seen it with my own eyes.  In some ways I distrust the Kinsey Scale, too, because it could be too dictatorial....plus I think there was some bias about who it was put to use with, too, but I won't go there, because I can see this thread already has some, uh, intensity going on, so I should just call it good here.

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    • I am not upset that shes gay. I am upset that they threw in a love story with ellie but it doesn't really match the main game since she didn't seem that fazed about the person she loved dying. OR even say much/think of her.


      The DLC was pretty much a way to get more diversity in the people buying the game...what i do not like,they should of stayed with the simple non love stuff story the main game had(they in no way made joel or ellie seem like lovers,why i liked the game so much).

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    • 200.123.210.2 wrote:
      I am not upset that shes gay. I am upset that they threw in a love story with ellie but it doesn't really match the main game since she didn't seem that fazed about the person she loved dying. OR even say much/think of her.


      The DLC was pretty much a way to get more diversity in the people buying the game...what i do not like,they should of stayed with the simple non love stuff story the main game had(they in no way made joel or ellie seem like lovers,why i liked the game so much).


      No. That's incorrect, sorry to say. There's a whole bunch of things in the game that Ellie does that reminds her (and us) with her times with Riley. Of course, at first you don't realize them, but you do after you play the DLC. Riley's more signficant than you think and I can give you a list:

      1. The Pun book - Let's not forget she takes this out in times to "lighten the mood". She does it to make other's laugh and it reminds her much of the humorous times she had with Riley, and it's probably one of the few items she has to remember Riley by.
      2. Whistling - Whistling was something that wasn't so easy for her to do. In the DLC, this was a rare moment to capture, because I didn't. I found it online; Ellie overhears Riley whistling and asks her how to do it, when Ellie tries and fails, Riley responds by saying, "You'll get it...maybe". Ellie doesn't give up and eventually learns it in the campaign. I find that significant enough.
      3. Angel Knives - When in Bill's town she saw the Angel Knives arcade game Riley knew so much about it. When she was telling Joel about it, she practically bragged about how much her friend (Riley) knew about it. She even spills it to him, as if she was happy to even be reminded of her.
      4. Playing as Ellie - When you get to play as Ellie, you can look through her backpack. In her backpack she has items that are important to her and remind her of other people. In there, there's Riley's Pendant and if you look at it, Ellie sorrowfully says, "I miss you".
      5. The Ending - Let's not forget about when she tells Joel about Riley straight-forwardly and makes him swear that the things he said about the fire flies were true. It was to show that she had the power to possibly stop the one thing that killed the person she cared most about, and if that opportunity was taken from her, I doubt Ellie would be okay with it. Not to mention she's had survivor guilt, saying that she was "still waiting for her turn" to become infected unlike the lives she lost (Tess, Sam, & Riley).

      So no, the DLC wasn't a way to get more diverse people to buying more games. What makes you say that? People buy games regardless, so that's invalid, I'm sorry. This game won Game of the Year because of the characters, the experience, and the story. Not because Ellie and Joel weren't lovers (which is insanely gross considering she's 14). Read between the lines, and put yourself in the characters shoes. That's the point of playing the game. Show a little more empathy. I understand that love can sometimes be a hard subject in story lines, but we've got to admit, it made the DLC more interesting. If it was just a simple friendship, I wouldn't like it as much as I do now, and that's the honest truth.

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    • This will probably be an unpopular opinion but I would hazard that few 14- or 15-year-olds are even remotely settled in their sexual identities, no matter how abnormal the situation. Ellie has still got a lot of growing and socialisation to do before she can firm up her grip on her emotions as well as to whom she's romantically attracted.

      FWIW, I'm pretty sure that Naughty Dog intend for Ellie to be either gay or bi. I'm sure that, if there is ever a sequel, it will be addressed more specifically.

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    • BenRG wrote:
      This will probably be an unpopular opinion but I would hazard that few 14- or 15-year-olds are even remotely settled in their sexual identities, no matter how abnormal the situation. Ellie has still got a lot of growing and socialisation to do before she can firm up her grip on her emotions as well as to whom she's romantically attracted.

      FWIW, I'm pretty sure that Naughty Dog intend for Ellie to be either gay or bi. I'm sure that, if there is ever a sequel, it will be addressed more specifically.

      -facepalm- Nooo. What are you talking about? When kids mostly come out to their parents, it's their teenage years most likely. Being a teenager doesn't make you less experienced on your own sexuality, in fact it makes you more experienced. Are you willing to say that when you get older you can just say, "Nevermind I don't want to be straight, I want to be gay."? Incorrect. 

      To be honest, I believe that Ellie can be identified as either lesbian, bisexual or pansexual. Pansexual meaning, she can be attracted to male, female, or transgendered, but only because there'ss the lack of caring about gender in the world that she's in. I'm sure some people do care about gender, but I'd think a lot of people toss the belief, that you can only be with the opposite gender, right out the window, and only because the most important thing to care about is either surviving and the infected. Love can easily get knocked off the list. Not to mention, you can lose the ones you love really quick, so love and positive relationships isn't easy to come around.

      She was literally born in 2019, the world was already different. Try to imagine a world without this system we have now: Religion, laws, education; things would be so much more different. It's hence the reason Ellie swears so much, morals just aren't a thing anymore.

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    • JuniperAlien wrote:

      -facepalm- Nooo. What are you talking about? When kids mostly come out to their parents, it's their teenage years most likely. Being a teenager doesn't make you less experienced on your own sexuality, in fact it makes you more experienced. Are you willing to say that when you get older you can just say, "Nevermind I don't want to be straight, I want to be gay."? Incorrect. .

      Well, that post pretty much contradicts reality in every possible way.

      Yes, teens 'come out' and later switch back and forth; that's just hormones for you. Secondly, yes, people change sexual orientation if they feel like it (usually in response to a life-style crisis of some sort) all the time.

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    • BenRG wrote:

      Yes, teens 'come out' and later switch back and forth; that's just hormones for you. Secondly, yes, people change sexual orientation if they feel like it (usually in response to a life-style crisis of some sort) all the time.


      How is it contradicting reality? I just gave a brief explanation on how she lives? And well, we aren't talking about reality. We're talking about the game, and her experiences in the game, and how life is in the game, and that if reality were just like the game, then we'd probably see eye to eye with her.

      Teens come out and later switch back? I know what it's like to have gay friends. I have many. You can't just be gay and not gay anymore. It's what you're attracted to, hormones or not. I remember being in high school, teens didn't even do it in response to hormones, they did it to look "cool", hence why they can revert back to being attracted to whatever they want to be. I don't under--whatever.

      People don't just change like that unless it's some over-religious family who makes their child go to therapy because they believe something is "wrong with them". They can say they aren't attracted to the opposite gender, but I feel deep down you can't just... not like what you like.

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    • I'm not going to continue this as it is clearly something about which you feel strongly. Suffice to say that my experience and understanding is different from yours and leave it at that.

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    • People CAN be confused about their sexuality - but I expect it's more common for LGBT+ people than straight people. Really, by the time someone comes out, they're probably pretty sure about the whole thing so don't hold your breath hoping it's just a "phase." Besides, there's no reason to try to convince yourself that a female character who has never shown romantic interest in a male character is only "confused" and not socialized enough to know who she's attracted too (no, being nice to Sam, hanging out with him, and grieving his death does not mean she wanted a romantic relationship with the guy. Family and romantic partners aren't the only people we are capable of caring about you know)

      Why the hell do people think having a gay character means catering to a political agenda? Gay people exist and most people these days don't hate them. And hey, they even did the scene in way that didn't pander to the perverted fetish some men have for girl on girl (that's probably the problem).

      Anyway, we females aren't so crazy out of control emotional we just randomly kiss our female friends on the lips as an expression of excitement (maybe that's how it works in porn, but not here in the real world). That explanation was extremely ignorant and condescending.

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    • BenRG wrote:
      I'm not going to continue this as it is clearly something about which you feel strongly. Suffice to say that my experience and understanding is different from yours and leave it at that.

      Well, I sure hope that your experience was enough. 

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    • JuniperAlien wrote:
      200.123.210.2 wrote:
      I am not upset that shes gay. I am upset that they threw in a love story with ellie but it doesn't really match the main game since she didn't seem that fazed about the person she loved dying. OR even say much/think of her.


      The DLC was pretty much a way to get more diversity in the people buying the game...what i do not like,they should of stayed with the simple non love stuff story the main game had(they in no way made joel or ellie seem like lovers,why i liked the game so much).


      No. That's incorrect, sorry to say. There's a whole bunch of things in the game that Ellie does that reminds her (and us) with her times with Riley. Of course, at first you don't realize them, but you do after you play the DLC. Riley's more signficant than you think and I can give you a list:

      1. The Pun book - Let's not forget she takes this out in times to "lighten the mood". She does it to make other's laugh and it reminds her much of the humorous times she had with Riley, and it's probably one of the few items she has to remember Riley by.
      2. Whistling - Whistling was something that wasn't so easy for her to do. In the DLC, this was a rare moment to capture, because I didn't. I found it online; Ellie overhears Riley whistling and asks her how to do it, when Ellie tries and fails, Riley responds by saying, "You'll get it...maybe". Ellie doesn't give up and eventually learns it in the campaign. I find that significant enough.
      3. Angel Knives - When in Bill's town she saw the Angel Knives arcade game Riley knew so much about it. When she was telling Joel about it, she practically bragged about how much her friend (Riley) knew about it. She even spills it to him, as if she was happy to even be reminded of her.
      4. Playing as Ellie - When you get to play as Ellie, you can look through her backpack. In her backpack she has items that are important to her and remind her of other people. In there, there's Riley's Pendant and if you look at it, Ellie sorrowfully says, "I miss you".
      5. The Ending - Let's not forget about when she tells Joel about Riley straight-forwardly and makes him swear that the things he said about the fire flies were true. It was to show that she had the power to possibly stop the one thing that killed the person she cared most about, and if that opportunity was taken from her, I doubt Ellie would be okay with it. Not to mention she's had survivor guilt, saying that she was "still waiting for her turn" to become infected unlike the lives she lost (Tess, Sam, & Riley).

      So no, the DLC wasn't a way to get more diverse people to buying more games. What makes you say that? People buy games regardless, so that's invalid, I'm sorry. This game won Game of the Year because of the characters, the experience, and the story. Not because Ellie and Joel weren't lovers (which is insanely gross considering she's 14). Read between the lines, and put yourself in the characters shoes. That's the point of playing the game. Show a little more empathy. I understand that love can sometimes be a hard subject in story lines, but we've got to admit, it made the DLC more interesting. If it was just a simple friendship, I wouldn't like it as much as I do now, and that's the honest truth.


      Those things do not have to be connected with being in love with someone. Before the kiss it seemed more like a dear friend(one of her only friends) who stayed with her till the end. This is what does not match to me.The love part was not needed.


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    • 200.123.210.2 wrote:

      Those things do not have to be connected with being in love with someone. Before the kiss it seemed more like a dear friend(one of her only friends) who stayed with her till the end. This is what does not match to me.The love part was not needed.


      Neil Druckmann has said that they set out specifically to tell "a different kind of love story" with the DLC. So, in the context of this particular story, yeah, they are connected to her being in love with Riley. 

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    • 108.236.76.38 wrote:

      ....Anyway, we females aren't so crazy out of control emotional we just randomly kiss our female friends on the lips as an expression of excitement (maybe that's how it works in porn, but not here in the real world). That explanation was extremely ignorant and condescending.

      Yeah, I mean, this wasn't a quick peck quickly followed by a hug or anything, it was a clear romantic kiss. The way Ellie nervously pauses and looks at Riley before kissing her, to me, should dispel any interpretations that it was just a "friendship kiss" which I didn't even realize was a "thing" lol. 

      It was just a beautiful and tender moment. I don't get the people calling it "unnecessary." I mean, they might as well also call the giraffe scene unnecessary. It's just showing you a glimpse of beauty or humanity left in this bleak world. There can still be beautiful, quiet moments (giraffe scene) and people can still do things like fall in love (kiss scene.)

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    • MayonnEgg wrote:

      Yeah, I mean, this wasn't a quick peck quickly followed by a hug or anything, it was a clear romantic kiss. The way Ellie nervously pauses and looks at Riley before kissing her, to me, should dispel any interpretations that it was just a "friendship kiss" which I didn't even realize was a "thing" lol. 

      It was just a beautiful and tender moment. I don't get the people calling it "unnecessary." I mean, they might as well also call the giraffe scene unnecessary. It's just showing you a glimpse of beauty or humanity left in this bleak world. There can still be beautiful, quiet moments (giraffe scene) and people can still do things like fall in love (kiss scene.)

      Another 10 points to Gryffindor. 

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    • I don't know, to me at least, their relationship felt really weird. I mean half of the time it felt like those two were like grumpy old men, not even knowing what is it that they are fighting each other. Like why was Riley even bothering to come all the way back for one-night trip if she wasn't feeling guilty for their abrupt departure 46 days ago? OK, it was love in the end, but until then, i just didn't understand what the hell their mumbo-jumbo talk was all about.

      Also, their relationship (at least to me) felt different that that in AD. Like they were two different people. Riley was a lot less rebalious in this and Ellie wasn't such a typical, allways angry teenager that would like to see some action (like abandoning military school in the middle of the night without second thoughts). She was hesitant. Duo lost their edge. And i missed that.

      I will be totally honest here and i know i will get alot of backlash-i wasn't a great fan of Ellie having a romantic relationship either. Much of what i loved about her character in TLOU was that she was so indiferrent to such things (not including Bill's porn). No love-is-in-the-air bull**** or anything. Just survivin'. So in that regard, it was kind of unnecessary to me. 

      One good thing about it though: all those small things that someone else mentioned before(Angel Knives, whistling, Ellie's confession at the end) did come around very nicely and that made me very happy. However, that is also what troubles me-is that really it? If Ellie really loved Riley so much and if Ellie was fighting as hell to get to the Fireflies because of her (indirectly), than that means that she is in some bad place. Joel took away from her that one choice and Ellie is probably really angry and piss**. I know i would be. So if ND say goodbye to her character, then that is one depressing goodbye indeed.

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    • LordOfLight08 wrote:
      I don't know, to me at least, their relationship felt really weird. I mean half of the time it felt like those two were like grumpy old men, not even knowing what is it that they are fighting each other. Like why was Riley even bothering to come all the way back for one-night trip if she wasn't feeling guilty for their abrupt departure 46 days ago? OK, it was love in the end, but until then, i just didn't understand what the hell their mumbo-jumbo talk was all about.

      Also, their relationship (at least to me) felt different that that in AD. Like they were two different people. Riley was a lot less rebalious in this and Ellie wasn't such a typical, allways angry teenager that would like to see some action (like abandoning military school in the middle of the night without second thoughts). She was hesitant. Duo lost their edge. And i missed that.

      I will be totally honest here and i know i will get alot of backlash-i wasn't a great fan of Ellie having a romantic relationship either. Much of what i loved about her character in TLOU was that she was so indiferrent to such things (not including Bill's porn). No love-is-in-the-air bull**** or anything. Just survivin'. So in that regard, it was kind of unnecessary to me.....

      I felt like it was a pretty typical close friends relationship that developed into more. If someone you really cared for just up and vanished on you without a word, you'd probably be a bit angry/relieved/excited like Ellie was in the opening scene. Even if they weren't in love, I don't see how Riley's motivation for taking Ellie to the mall would feel "weird" or unclear. They'd snuck out to the mall before to hang out, and RIley was leaving bascially forever in the morning, so she wanted to hang with her friend for one last night, like "old times." I don't get what you found so confusing- what are you specifically referring to by "mumbo jumbo?"

      I think as far as their characters being a bit different than in LB, I'd say that's because the dynamic of their relationship has clearly changed since their experiences (it got pretty real there at the end of AD.) Plus, Riley now has a motivation in life rather than misplaced rebellion by joining the fireflies, so it's natural her character would change. 

      I understand you not liking the romantic element. Perfectly reasonable, I don't see why you'd get "backlash" or anything. I personally loved it, because it was showing a different side to Ellie- basically for the reason you did't like it lol. I mean, in the main game, there's no time for them to explore romance or anything like that- TLOU is about Joel and Ellie. It wouldn't fit (not to mention, it's not like you run into any other teenage girls in the main game anyway.) LB, on the other hand, is showing us more about who Ellie is as a person, and that includes seeing her tragic first love. I think there was a real loss of innocence there, to first express love to someone and then have them wrenched away like that (whcih honestly would explain Ellie's aversion to anything romantic.) I liked that it felt a bit different from the main game. 

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    • I meant weird in the sense that i didn't know what they were feeling from time to time. Like for example one minute they were all into each other, the next they were bickering about something totally insignificent. Like when Riley was all pissed when Ellie only said OKAY after Firefly-girl revealed that she was going to next city. My reaction would be totally the same as Ellie's, i would only say okay because if would be impossible for me to comprehend that my  firend is going away, not because i was really okay like Riley was asuming. But that scene made it look like they were essentially arguing about nothing, just missing signals. Also, because it wasn't revealed why they left eachother on bad terms, i just couldn't immerse myself into their relationship. I was really trying to understand what was their look on this situation, but not knowing the exposition made that really hard for me. And so on and so forth.

      Yes, i understand that some s**** thing happened between AD and LB, but i preferred their relationship in the first one. One of the main reasons is that in AD, Riley was much more of a role model for Ellie, like Joel for exemple. Riley's character felt so much more badass to me, having that mysterious quality to her like Marlene. In LB, it seemed that they were much more on the same level, Ellie being almost equal in badassery than Riley. I guess i think that the role of trouble-finding kids fits them more perfectly than love-seeking teenagers.

      The problem is-i don't know what to think about this romantic element, it's a mixed bag for me. One one hand i' am totally fine with it, it fits so well with the story and it propels Ellie's character to new level. I cannot argue with what you've said in the last paragraph, because it is totally true and i know it. But on the other hand, there is something that makes me not go 100% on board with it. Some of the reasons i've already explained but the last reason for me is the Joker effect. Basically, Ellie's character reminds me of Joker in the sense that less that you know about him, the better. One of the reasons his character works so well is that you don't know alot about him and same goes for Ellie; yes she is more developed now but not knowing much about her  and her love interest made her much moure intriguing in TLOU, transforming her from ignorant kid to hardened survivor by the end. 

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    • It could mean anything. Ellie could be bisexual, lesbian, or just really care about her friend. Who cares either way? It was adorable and I loved that moment. If it ruined the game for you, I'm gonna laugh at ya.

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    • LordOfLight08 wrote:

      That's totally fair. I think maybe I just was able to more personally relate to it more than you? I dunno. I totally got why they were acting like they were. Like, they're happy to see eachother and all, but then Ellie gets annoyed because Riley isn't being completely honest with her (that this whole fun mall reuinion is really a goodbye forever- so Riley is abandoning her- again.)

      And yeah, I get what you're saying with the Joker comparison. It's really just personal preference. ND knew they were taking a risk by doing something pretty different in a lot of ways with this DLC, so they were bound to miss the mark with some people. Me, personally, it was one of my favorite gaming experiences.

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    • JuniperAlien wrote:
      Spoiler warning- This discussion will be talking about a controversial topic that happened in the Left Behind DLC.

      When I read that bit, I thought you were going to be talking about something serious and controversial.

      Boy, was I wrong.

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    • Bailey Jay wrote:
      When I read that bit, I thought you were going to be talking about something serious and controversial.

      Boy, was I wrong.

      ???

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    • JuniperAlien wrote:
      Bailey Jay wrote:
      When I read that bit, I thought you were going to be talking about something serious and controversial.

      Boy, was I wrong.

      ???

      I think they mean that it shouldn't be controversial just because Ellie is gay.

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    • MayonnEgg wrote:
      JuniperAlien wrote:
      Bailey Jay wrote:
      When I read that bit, I thought you were going to be talking about something serious and controversial.

      Boy, was I wrong.

      ???
      I think they mean that it shouldn't be controversial just because Ellie is gay.

      I know I didn't find it controversial.  When you think about it, much of the narrative of Left Behind consists of Ellie and Riley "girling out", hanging around in a mall and doing things (especially in the Halloween store).  But supposedly it was confirmed by the developer(s) that Ellie is gay, as her character was developed with that in mind.

      Maybe the reason lots of us still think it's all open to speculation is due to how we interpreted that kissing scene.  I honestly thought at the time that it was a circumstantial thing, coupled with how girls tend to open up more about their feelings than boys do.  And as I said above, I was 14 once, and in school I've seen that stuff with my own eyes (girls kissing, though they weren't lesbians).

      Maybe Ellie's relationship with Riley is just something very unique; it isn't a simple, cut-and-dried definition, and that it's probably something that goes beyond a man and a woman (or a woman and a woman, in this case).  It might be very complicated, but the only comparison I can think of is John's (now Big Boss) relationship with The Boss in MGS3; those who have played the series and studied its backstory will know that the relationship between the two was something unique, even though in MGS3 he said at one point "She was like a mother, and my master."  However, we don't know explicit details about how their relationship was, aside from vague hints.  Their relationship was something beyond mere definitions like "friends", "comrades", and even "lovers".  It was something he took very seriously, too, whereas his teammates during Operation Snake Eater were like "She betrayed us, but oh well that's life so just go in and kill her," and so when he did he was clearly devastated.  Only he knows the truth about the mission, and of her.  Those who beat MGS3 ought to know....

      ...anyway, lest we go off-topic....I'm not saying the relationship between Ellie & Riley is parallel to Naked Snake & The Boss, of course.  I'm just saying that maybe the relationship between Ellie & Riley is something only they themselves can understand, and isn't something that can be defined so easily by others.  Though, if her character was developed with the idea that she was gay, it might explain some things.  However, one thing lots of people don't understand is the concept of how you can love someone very much and not want to have sex with that person.....this might be why the kissing scene in Left Behind continues to be up to debate.  I mean, speculation and debating can be fun and all, but I don't think we'll ever have a concrete answer for a while.

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    • Uh, it kind of was controversial. The amount of outrage from fans and people had me stoked. Also, it falls under the definition of a controversial topic. Soo...yeah.

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    • JuniperAlien wrote:
      Uh, it kind of was controversial. The amount of outrage from fans and people had me stoked. Also, it falls under the definition of a controversial topic. Soo...yeah.

      Yeah, but I think they were just remarking how sad it is that we live in a world where that is a controversial topic in the first place. At least that's how I interpreted their comment.

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    • MayonnEgg wrote:
      JuniperAlien wrote:
      Uh, it kind of was controversial. The amount of outrage from fans and people had me stoked. Also, it falls under the definition of a controversial topic. Soo...yeah.
      Yeah, but I think they were just remarking how sad it is that we live in a world where that is a controversial topic in the first place. At least that's how I interpreted their comment.

      Though I have spoiled myself reading up on the kiss scene long prior to playing TLoU Remastered, but when the time came to play the game and experience Left Behind, I found the scene neither revolutionary nor contemptible.  Though, to be fair, TLoU Left Behind has shown moments that not many other games bother to attempt.  To me, a lot of it was cute, for lack of a less-silly description.

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    • Dave55811 wrote:

      Though I have spoiled myself reading up on the kiss scene long prior to playing TLoU Remastered, but when the time came to play the game and experience Left Behind, I found the scene neither revolutionary nor contemptible.  Though, to be fair, TLoU Left Behind has shown moments that not many other games bother to attempt.  To me, a lot of it was cute, for lack of a less-silly description.

      It may not have meant much to you, but it meant a lot and was revolutionary to some people: http://www.ign.com/articles/2014/05/30/the-last-of-us-youtuber-brings-ellie-actress-to-tears

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    • MayonnEgg wrote:
      Dave55811 wrote:

      Though I have spoiled myself reading up on the kiss scene long prior to playing TLoU Remastered, but when the time came to play the game and experience Left Behind, I found the scene neither revolutionary nor contemptible.  Though, to be fair, TLoU Left Behind has shown moments that not many other games bother to attempt.  To me, a lot of it was cute, for lack of a less-silly description.

      It may not have meant much to you, but it meant a lot and was revolutionary to some people: http://www.ign.com/articles/2014/05/30/the-last-of-us-youtuber-brings-ellie-actress-to-tears

      Heh...poor Ashley.  But seriously, that was an interesting video, and certainly enlightening.

      Maybe I should've thought twice before saying it wasn't "revolutionary", because maybe in some ways it was, at least regarding a videogame's narrative.  For those who are gay and were touched by the narrative of Left Behind, I say more power to them, because it's something they can personally relate to.  I try to be objective about things; I am aware that there was controversy regarding Left Behind, but one has to play it to get a better perspective.

      And I did state also that, in fairness, Left Behind has provided moments in its narrative that not a lot of other games bother to do.  In the case of Left Behind it features Ellie & Riley girling out, but it does shed light and contribute to Ellie's character development.  It even had some creative moments inspired by the main game's gameplay mechanics (throwing bricks at SUV's, water-gun scene...).  And as for the kiss scene, I liked the choice of background music especially; not many people like oldies music, but I do, and it was perfect. (:

      Left Behind was good....but short.

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    • Dave55811 wrote:

      Heh...poor Ashley.  But seriously, that was an interesting video, and certainly enlightening.

      Maybe I should've thought twice before saying it wasn't "revolutionary", because maybe in some ways it was, at least regarding a videogame's narrative.  For those who are gay and were touched by the narrative of Left Behind, I say more power to them, because it's something they can personally relate to.  I try to be objective about things; I am aware that there was controversy regarding Left Behind, but one has to play it to get a better perspective.

      And I did state also that, in fairness, Left Behind has provided moments in its narrative that not a lot of other games bother to do.  In the case of Left Behind it features Ellie & Riley girling out, but it does shed light and contribute to Ellie's character development.  It even had some creative moments inspired by the main game's gameplay mechanics (throwing bricks at SUV's, water-gun scene...).  And as for the kiss scene, I liked the choice of background music especially; not many people like oldies music, but I do, and it was perfect. (:

      Left Behind was good....but short.

      I really just used your comment as an excuse to post that video, lol. No worries. I also agree with the rest of your comment here! 

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    • There was no controversy until you made it. What happened is that small group of people, consisting mostly of internet trolls posted some comments that made neo-liberals go nutts, claiming that there was some big controversy, when in fact, there was non. People overreacted because they felt offended that some small group didn't accept their new-age ideas, so they were all butthurt and cried like if the world is some big homophobic place with no future. And what was even more funny that some people (who really thought that Ellie and Riley were friends) joined them, accusing the so called homophobes only to be later accused of the same thing because they presented their honest opinion, which was just laughable. A lot of people on this forum were part of the problem, just to now wonder how did this become a controversy. But you don't have to believe my word, you can go and read posts from 1 year ago, you should get a clearer picture.

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    • TheLastManStanding wrote:
      There was no controversy until you made it. What happened is that small group of people, consisting mostly of internet trolls posted some comments that made neo-liberals go nutts, claiming that there was some big controversy, when in fact, there was non. People overreacted because they felt offended that some small group didn't accept their new-age ideas, so they were all butthurt and cried like if the world is some big homophobic place with no future. And what was even more funny that some people (who really thought that Ellie and Riley were friends) joined them, accusing the so called homophobes only to be later accused of the same thing because they presented their honest opinion, which was just laughable. A lot of people on this forum were part of the problem, just to now wonder how did this become a controversy. But you don't have to believe my word, you can go and read posts from 1 year ago, you should get a clearer picture.

      First of all, this thread was made 2 months after LB came out, when this forum was being pretty much dominated by heated discussion of this topic (none are a year old, as you say. LB came out back in February, remember.) 

      I would agree that those who have a "problem" or who voiced otherwise homophobic views are a vocal minority (certainly in the grand sceme of society), but some of them were members of this community that had been productive members before LB came out (so, not "random trolls.") Thus, the butting of heads. I don't really get the point you're making by telling us to look at old threads. You haven't really made a compelling argument that any "controversy" having to do with this topic is derived from a few users on wikia. Wikia wasn't the only place these kinds of debates were occuring. Neil Druckmann even has addressed the debates in interviews (like [one]).

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    • Mixed it with Ellie/David, rape conversation, my bad, but no problem-it doesn't change a thing. Those that you refere as "productive members of this community" were in minority, most people that wrote on this walls were "Wiki contributors" that only came here to make some enthusiased people uncomfortable. But i'am not here to talk about numbers.

      The real problem here is the word "homophobic". You see, not all people that were against (or still are) Ellie/Riley love relatinship were/are homophobic. Yet they were marked as such multiple times just by adressing their opinion. If someone said that they didn't like the whole love thing, then so what? They just didn't like it. No need to call them homophobic because of that. But some people, i presume LGBT supporters accused them of being trouble-makers. So you see, when you make such definition, the circle groves bigger and one tiny little kiss becomes great controversy that everyone talks about. If you liked it, fine, you spent your money well. But if someone else didn't, then you should leave them be, not trying to convert them to feel how you feel.

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    • I'm not registered in this site or anything, but I had to comment in this thread.

      I, personally, was able to relate a lot with Left Behind's plot. I had a best friend, who I've met in school. We've been friends for many years, but eventually he had to go away, live in another city. We threw a party for him, and while we were chatting and saying goodbye to each other, needless to say I was in tears the whole time. While in private, I decided to say the things I felt at the moment (we were a bit drunk) and we ended up kissing each other. It happened, it was spontaneous, and neither of us is gay for that.


      What I mean by this is, I really liked how ND made the moment so spontaneous and lifelike. Sometimes a hug isn't enough to express love, and I don't think that a single kiss is enough to turn someone gay/bi.

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    • 179.176.90.173 wrote:

      ...What I mean by this is, I really liked how ND made the moment so spontaneous and lifelike. Sometimes a hug isn't enough to express love, and I don't think that a single kiss is enough to turn someone gay/bi.

      That's such a great story! I haven't even found myself in a situation that similar, but I still found it really relatable. 

      I have to respond to your last sentence, though. I'm not saying that you meant it this way, but saying "I don't think a single kiss is enough to turn someone gay/bi," I think is missing the point a bit. First of all, ND has confirmed that Ellie is a gay character, and that kiss was a romantic kiss. You're right, that kissing someone doesn't always have to be romantic, but this one was. But that doesn't mean that the takeaway is that "a single kiss turned" her gay; it means it's being revealed to us that she was a gay character all along. We just only found out as an audience when she kissed Riley. 

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    • just edited and added a quotes page, all organized and neat! (and emotional)

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    • Remember, this game is set 20 years in the future and where pretty much anything goes since society has broken down.

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    • It was one of my favourite parts of the game. I thought it fit the story. Anyone who's really worked up about them kissing is probably not someone you'd want to be around.

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    • Fanofwiki wrote:
      Ellie is a victim of circumstance ,,if her best friend Riley had been a boy she would do the same thing .  
      Ashley-Johnson

      Ellie

      Holy ass! That looks exactly like her!

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    • My 2 cents...

      I can understand how someone could see this as being "cheap"; Naughty Dog really tried to avoid cliches with this game, and since Left Behind was thrown in after the game was initially released, it might feel to some like they added something unusual for the sake of having something unusual. I myself couldn't give two halves of a dog fuck on a shit, though. If that's how Naughty Dog wanted to paint the lore, so be it. Ellie's still the great character she is, and though Riley isn't the star of the show like Ellie is I thought she was cool and well fleshed-out regardless of the kissing scene.

      As someone above mentioned, heterosexuality isn't the only sexual orientation people can have in this world, and I don't mind homosexuality being thrown in. No one made a huge stink about Bill being gay, why should they with Ellie kissing Riley?

      ...and was it really a spur-of-the-moment thing, or is Ellie really into other girls like that? Again, I don't care.


      Yeah, that's all I got.

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    • I thought it was adorable, I don't get why people are so upset with it.

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    • 201.16.178.46 wrote:
      I thought it was adorable, I don't get why people are so upset with it.

      Because people are weirdos. 

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    • JuniperAlien wrote:
      201.16.178.46 wrote:
      I thought it was adorable, I don't get why people are so upset with it.
      Because people are weirdos. 

      I think I read somewhere online, months back, that it was also because it was a black & white person kissing.  And here I was thinking this was 2014, not the 50's or 60's, because back then, such a depiction would make everybody shit their pants and scream bloody-murder and probably provoke the CIA to kidnap them for their MKULTRA experiments.....but I exaggerate.

      It was adorable, too.  But I'm 29 and I shouldn't be saying things like that.  They're, what, 14?  I could get in trouble saying things like that. ):

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    • Dave55811 wrote:


      It's really interesting you say that especially, because most of the people playing these kind of games are actually people who are a lot younger than 18, and I feel like its really hard for them to wrap their minds around this lol.

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    • JuniperAlien wrote:
      Dave55811 wrote:

      It's really interesting you say that especially, because most of the people playing these kind of games are actually people who are a lot younger than 18, and I feel like its really hard for them to wrap their minds around this lol.

      Well I consider myself an "old breed" of gamer.  This new generation of gamers will never know what it was like in my lifetime.  But in regards to the issue of Ellie's feelings toward Riley, it's a bit of a mature concept that takes exposure & observation to fully grasp.  Otherwise, people just see it and then freak out.  Even now we continue to speculate, but that's because how the two were depicted wasn't in such an in-your-face way.  That's a problem we tend to have when we perceive things.  The whole time it's them girling out, then at one point near the end they share a kiss.  Even then I thought it was an in-the-moment thing, just some girly thing.....but the developers did state at one point that Ellie was originally designed to be a gay character.  But the problem(?) is how she is portrayed.  It reminds me of an online article I caught about gay characters being more prominent in videogames; the article stated that gay videogame characters are "Hi; we're gay, but we're busy right now."  Meaning that, they are gay, but it's not the sole defining element of the character, as the character will be partaking in whatever relevant activity there is in the game world like everybody else.  To me, this is proper....but there are plenty of people out there who just can't accept that, that they want the character to be all like "Look at me!  Look at me!  I'm gaaaaayyyy!"  And so this makes me wonder.....how good of a character would Ellie have been if she was acting all self-entitled about her homosexuality?  That, instead of how we already recognize her?  I personally feel it would've taken away from her as a character.  So, what I'm saying here, lest I get misunderstood, is that the problem isn't her being gay, but rather, the fact that she is gay should be some crowning achievement for the industry as a whole.....I mean, Gone Home was GOTY in 2013 solely on the revelation that your player-character's sister was a lesbian.

      As for videogame storylines, it seems like an awful lot of people don't grasp what defines a story.  One time I had a colleague say that TLoU "had no narrative", which blew my mind because narrative was what TLoU was all about, as far I'm concerned.  But it's not just this, but also the more recent Destiny game; people play that game and say "This game has no story!"  Uh, yeah it does.  Except, my claim can be shot down easily, because what it is is "backstory".  Unfortunately I have to go to bed soon because I'm tired, but what I will say is that I don't understand how people decide what makes a story in a videogame.  Do people need to be spoon-fed?  Must there be nothing left to the imagination?  Or do people lack imagination?  To me a good story is one that can leave fans to speculate about its future....but I don't know.

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    • What's with those "Joel needs to give Ellie some D" comments anyway? I mean, come on, I forgot how old Joel is but Ellie's what... 14? I get that in some people's views, being gay might be sick and all, but don't you think an older man fucking a 14 year old girl is pretty sick? Besides if she's infected, even though she's immune, would he not get genital CBI or something? Bet you didn't think about that. If Joel gave Ellie some D there would be no story.

      Anyway, I personally think it was a pretty decent addition to the story and I sit on the middle ground. My only problem with the DLC is it was too damn short.

      If the characters had been over-sexualized or some shit like that I'd have thrown down my controller and took the game back to the store - I don't play a quality game like The Last of Us (Remastered) on the PS4 to see that pre-pubescent garbage - I want atmosphere, excitement, tension, and interesting characters. You know, the things you don't see in real life.

      I'd completely understand the rejection if all that equality and LGBT-culture stuff had been the focal point of the game. I mean really, if anyone, gay or straight bases their whole identity on their sexuality, I call them perverts - and I certainly don't want to put money into that crap, especially if it involves underagers. But this wasn't the case. All characters in this game, including the gay(?) ones (Ellie, Riley and Bill) had other aspects to their personality and they were what I noticed. Sexuality is a secondary thing, especially in a post-apocalyptic world (unless it's purely for breeding which wasn't part of the story).

      My point: the whole thing was tasteful, subtle, and even if it was politically charged it was done with enough skill that I would give it a pass.

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    • I'm like how Naughty Dog doesn't seem like the people who would just "milk out" profit from its fans. If TLOU was more popular than COD I still don't think they would make average quality games every year. They held true to their beliefs of being non-racist and non-homophobic. If you don't like that... too bad. They chose to write these stories and create these characters by and for themselves, you don't work for ND (unless you do then maybe you have a say in their decision) and didn't force you to buy their game. I personally thought it was one of the cutest things I've ever seen.

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    • In thinking more about this whole topic and its "controversey," I've kind of come to a theory as to why some gamers reacted so vehemently against finding out Ellie was gay (other than just out and out homophobia.)

      First of all, playing a game is not as passive an experience as, say, watching TV. Combined with how well written and acted the characters were, It's safe to say that pretty much everyone who played TLOU developed a strong bond with Joel and Ellie. Ellie, being sort of nerdy herself, was probably especially relatable to a lot of gamers. She was a clear fan favorite. So then comes LB. I think to some, maybe even just unconsciously, learning that she was gay felt like a sort of betrayal to them. Like, this character that they've been playing as and relating to this whole time isn't as much like them as they thought. They maybe don't look at gay people as fellow humans like them, they see them as an abnormal, separate "other." I think for a lot of the people who came on these boards expressing discomfort (or worse) this is the first time that they'd actually really cared for a gay character as a real person, like them, before just seeing them as a person who is gay. 

      And that's honestly one of the things that I found so great about LB's excecution: we saw Ellie as a whole, complete person first. That's one of the most powerful ways of lessening prejudice and hate. I mean, when we're young and inexperienced, we only know what we're familiar with. If you're stright and grow up surrounded by straight people, it'll probably take knowing a gay person, or connecting with a gay fictional character, to get you to really understand that "oh, I guess someone can be gay and love puns and comic books and swearing and adventure just like me." It's realizing that there are other human beings out there that aren't exactly like you. LB could have been that moment for some people. And I think that's great. 

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    • MayonnEgg wrote:
      In thinking more about this whole topic and its "controversey," I've kind of come to a theory as to why some gamers reacted so vehemently against finding out Ellie was gay (other than just out and out homophobia.)

      First of all, playing a game is not as passive an experience as, say, watching TV. Combined with how well written and acted the characters were, It's safe to say that pretty much everyone who played TLOU developed a strong bond with Joel and Ellie. Ellie, being sort of nerdy herself, was probably especially relatable to a lot of gamers. She was a clear fan favorite. So then comes LB. I think to some, maybe even just unconsciously, learning that she was gay felt like a sort of betrayal to them. Like, this character that they've been playing as and relating to this whole time isn't as much like them as they thought. They maybe don't look at gay people as fellow humans like them, they see them as an abnormal, separate "other." I think for a lot of the people who came on these boards expressing discomfort (or worse) this is the first time that they'd actually really cared for a gay character as a real person, like them, before just seeing them as a person who is gay. 

      And that's honestly one of the things that I found so great about LB's excecution: we saw Ellie as a whole, complete person first. That's one of the most powerful ways of lessening prejudice and hate. I mean, when we're young and inexperienced, we only know what we're familiar with. If you're stright and grow up surrounded by straight people, it'll probably take knowing a gay person, or connecting with a gay fictional character, to get you to really understand that "oh, I guess someone can be gay and love puns and comic books and swearing and adventure just like me." It's realizing that there are other human beings out there that aren't exactly like you. LB could have been that moment for some people. And I think that's great. 

      Sorry to pick just one part of your post, but maybe I can speak about how some players felt betrayed.....albeit a little bit.  There's younger gamers out there, roughly around the character Ellie's age-range, and I'm sure that there are some gamers who develop a crush on a certain female character.  In Ellie's case, some male gamers probably feel let down because Ellie is gay, therefore not interested in men.  Ellie's a pretty likeable character; she has some personality traits that gamers could identify with.  If a gamer who was Ellie's age developed a crush on Ellie, to learn that she's gay might upset the gamer, because his crush isn't interested in boys.  Don't get me wrong; I know she's a fictitious character, but it's a known fact that people develop crushes on fictitious characters, whether from games or even cartoons.

      Nonetheless, there's still plenty of people out there who can't accept that homosexuals are still people.  Some such people are still fanatical about it as well.  If there are people who are venting on the Interwebs about the discovery that Ellie is a lesbian, then as far as I'm concerned, they have problems and they need to get a hobby.  Homosexuality is a hard thing to accept even today, but it's not helping anybody to rant against it.  In my opinion, Ellie's character was developed just fine.  Her character is defined by who we see her as, and not just one thing.  As for lesbian gamers, the fact that they can relate more to her as a result of her sexual orientation is something they can enjoy....or, as I put it, "More power to them," because I'm not gay and I can never understand, no matter how hard I try.  As for male gamers who had a crush on her but learned she isn't into guys, well, I'm sorry but that's life.

      God I hope I didn't come off sounding creepy here, talking about guys having a crush on Ellie....I made sure to mention the age range, but still. -_-

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    • I understand that, but that's kinda what the whole rating on the game is for.... So kids don't play it. I'm no bs'ing you though because I'm kinda young and I played it.

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    • Dave55811 wrote:

      Nonetheless, there's still plenty of people out there who can't accept that homosexuals are still people.  Some such people are still fanatical about it as well.  If there are people who are venting on the Interwebs about the discovery that Ellie is a lesbian, then as far as I'm concerned, they have problems and they need to get a hobby.  Homosexuality is a hard thing to accept even today, but it's not helping anybody to rant against it.  In my opinion, Ellie's character was developed just fine.  Her character is defined by who we see her as, and not just one thing.  As for lesbian gamers, the fact that they can relate more to her as a result of her sexual orientation is something they can enjoy....or, as I put it, "More power to them," because I'm not gay and I can never understand, no matter how hard I try.  As for male gamers who had a crush on her but learned she isn't into guys, well, I'm sorry but that's life.

      God I hope I didn't come off sounding creepy here, talking about guys having a crush on Ellie....I made sure to mention the age range, but still. -_-

      Oh yeah, I totally agree (not creepy at all.) It makes total sense, I think I kind of had those people in mind but didn't mention them in my post, because unfortunately there were those kinds of posters here when LB came out. It's not necessarily "I feel betrayed because this character isn't like me," but rather "I feel betrayed because this character wasn't made FOR me, or as I would have wanted" in their case. Still shows the same level of immaturity and entitlement.

      And the perfect response to all these people is (as you said): "sorry but that's life." Like, yeah, I guess it sucks to be disappointed, but I mean, no reason to rant about how ND is "pandering" or how all characters in games are going to hell in a handbasket. There's lots of different kinds of people in this world, and I'm glad games are reflecting that more and more. 

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    • Harkon Romney wrote:
      I understand that, but that's kinda what the whole rating on the game is for.... So kids don't play it. I'm no bs'ing you though because I'm kinda young and I played it.

      That's a good point. It kind of sucks that there are so many games out there with an "M for mature" rating that basically have an actual maturity level of a 12 year old, so it's just kind of accepted that people who are way too young end up playing M rated games (not that I'm some kind of ratings nazi or anything.) I'd be willing to bet that there are many M rated franchises in gaming that actually have a majority <18 audience that are being consciously catered to.

      But TLOU was a Mature rated game in the true sense of the word. Sure it earned it with violence and swearing, but there is also a lot of nuance, and complicated characters and narrative decisions that are just not yet fully understandable by people who aren't adults/older teens (or mature enough teens.) There are just certain things, especially in regards to understanding other people, that come with age. 

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    • I find it funny that I'm arguing this when I'm only 15 XD

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    • Harkon Romney wrote:
      I find it funny that I'm arguing this when I'm only 15 XD

      Eh, it's nothing to worry about.  If you're 15 and you're arguing about how people are negligent about the ESRB ratings system, you probably have some sense of ethics, or might be a bit mature beyond your years.  The latter might hold true if you grasp and appreciate TLoU's storyline.

      Most parents don't even give a damn when they buy M-rated games for their kids, not to mention that they're blown away by how they have to show ID to the cashier when they buy those games.  It is something to take notice of, especiallty if you compare games today with what we had back then; games today are rated M not just for violence but also for strong language and other adult-ish content.  Times back then were much simpler, in that a game was rated M because it was violent (Mortal Kombat).  Videogaming sure has come a long way in recent decades....but parental negligence has probably stood the same, or gotten worse.

      Maybe I shouldn't be one to judge.  When I was growing up I didn't get to play M-rated games like my peers did.  1994....Mortal Kombat II came out for the SNES and everybody else got to play it except me.  There was no ESRB label on the box to the game, but age prerequisites on games were becoming commonplace, and my mom took notice.  My mom didn't want me playing games like that; she was just overprotective like that.  But, comparing then to now, I think it was for the better, so now I have no regrets, nor feelings of shame.

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    • Honestly, I thought the kiss was the cutest thing!

      However, I think we are being way too quick to judge on whether or not she is gay. We simply saw Ellie kiss another girl. That does not mean that she is completely gay. She could be bisexual, too. Or she could just be straight or something which is highly unlikely though, considering that she did kiss another female.

      After all, I don't think she even knows what sexuality is, considering she has no idea what a Facebook is and she doesn't know what an ice cream truck is and such things like that. So I think she just, you know, likes who she likes. Meaning that it is a high chance that she is bisexual.

      But we never know. Maybe it will be revealed in the second game (is there really going to be a second game? I'm pretty sure it's all just rumors but could somebody let me know if it's true).

      Anyway, I was a big fan of the kiss. I thought it was absolutely adorable. And if you like her less because of the possibility that she is gay/bisexual, then that is rather sad.

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    • Actually a lot of straight girls do experiment so...

      Not denying she's lesbian or bi but, something to consider.

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    • ND has actually confirmed in interviews that Ellie is gay.

      Even so, it's also worth considering a few things (and I'm not accusing anyone of anything here just voicing some thoughts.) Although it's generally good to be open to different possibilities (like the possibility of "experimentation" or whatnot), why does this question only tend to come up when it's two girls involved in some way? Nobody similarly questions Joel's sexuality, for instance. Yes he had a wife, but he could "technically" be bisexual. At the end of Beauty and the Beast, does anybody stop to think "well, Belle may be with the prince, but she may also be bisexual, or just experimenting with a guy." I think if Riley were male, or if Ellie and Riley were even both male, there wouldn't be this discussion either. Guy and girl kiss= straight, to us. Similarly, guy and guy kiss= gay. But then generally, there is the idea that gay women have to do more to "prove" themselves to really be gay. This comes up to a small degree, with bringing up the whole "well, she may just be experimenting, or bisexual," argument.

      Yes, there are people in the world who are of course bisexual, or who have experimented. But this isn't a real person, this is a character in a story. With a story, there's a limited amount of time to address aspects of who a character is, so basically you're trying to tell the most information in the least amount of time. If we were supposed to take away from this that Ellie is not gay, but is in actuality "experimenting" or is bisexual, then why have the first and only instance of addressing any romantic aspects to her character be showing a gay relationship? It just doesn't make sense from a storytelling perspective. Just as we simply accept that Joel or Tommy is straight because we only actually see them with female partners, the only thing we can actually conclude from the information in the story is that Ellie is gay.

      And I think this comes down to us hardly ever seeing gay characters in the grand sceme of storytelling. Stories employ familiar patterns, structures, and character types. When we see something a little different, we don't always know how to react. That's why I just think it's important to think about why we react the way we do to certain characters and in another way to others (and why I wrote this long post, lol) because we may unintentionally be reinforcing some negative ideas.

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    • MayonnEgg wrote:
      ND has actually confirmed in interviews that Ellie is gay.

      Even so, it's also worth considering a few things (and I'm not accusing anyone of anything here just voicing some thoughts.) Although it's generally good to be open to different possibilities (like the possibility of "experimentation" or whatnot), why does this question only tend to come up when it's two girls involved in some way? Nobody similarly questions Joel's sexuality, for instance. Yes he had a wife, but he could "technically" be bisexual. At the end of Beauty and the Beast, does anybody stop to think "well, Belle may be with the prince, but she may also be bisexual, or just experimenting with a guy." I think if Riley were male, or if Ellie and Riley were even both male, there wouldn't be this discussion either. Guy and girl kiss= straight, to us. Similarly, guy and guy kiss= gay. But then generally, there is the idea that gay women have to do more to "prove" themselves to really be gay. This comes up to a small degree, with bringing up the whole "well, she may just be experimenting, or bisexual," argument.

      Yes, there are people in the world who are of course bisexual, or who have experimented. But this isn't a real person, this is a character in a story. With a story, there's a limited amount of time to address aspects of who a character is, so basically you're trying to tell the most information in the least amount of time. If we were supposed to take away from this that Ellie is not gay, but is in actuality "experimenting" or is bisexual, then why have the first and only instance of addressing any romantic aspects to her character be showing a gay relationship? It just doesn't make sense from a storytelling perspective. Just as we simply accept that Joel or Tommy is straight because we only actually see them with female partners, the only thing we can actually conclude from the information in the story is that Ellie is gay.

      And I think this comes down to us hardly ever seeing gay characters in the grand sceme of storytelling. Stories employ familiar patterns, structures, and character types. When we see something a little different, we don't always know how to react. That's why I just think it's important to think about why we react the way we do to certain characters and in another way to others (and why I wrote this long post, lol) because we may unintentionally be reinforcing some negative ideas.

      I can understand that she is gay, yeah.


      What I do not understand, however, is when people like her character/the game/Naughty Dog less because of the fact that she is gay. I don't see the big deal. I thought (and still think) the moment was insanely cute and I don't think it makes Ellie a better or worse character at all. Ellie is still, in my absolutely most honest opinion, the best video game character of all time; gay or not..

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    • I can understand that she is gay, yeah.


      What I do not understand, however, is when people like her character/the game/Naughty Dog less because of the fact that she is gay. I don't see the big deal. I thought (and still think) the moment was insanely cute and I don't think it makes Ellie a better or worse character at all. Ellie is still, in my absolutely most honest opinion, the best video game character of all time; gay or not..

      I agree. Unfortunately, there are people out there who have a very narrow view of what a character that they like/admire has to be, and being gay is apparently not included in that. It's pretty sad. I can only hope that those people are just really young and thus will end up growing out of such ignorance.

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    • Well i don't agree with anything above. If i'am honest, i don't give two s**** if i am in the minority on this. I don't like her to be gay-->there, i said it. Why? There are a couple of reasons. First; that is not how i imagined relationship between Ellie and Riley, at all. Their 'best friends' relationship was established so well in the comics and the main game, that this revelation in the DLC felt to me like a cheap trick, just another shock factor to make it more interasting. Why to go in different way, when everything was already eastablished? I know this is not how Druckmann intended it to be, but to me, it really felt this way. Yes, i made a picture of those two in my mind, so when it was revealed to be otherwise, i felt tricked. Like in the sense: "You thought about this in this way? Well to bad for you, bud. It's not like that. Deal with it, if everyone is prasing it, so you should to. And if you not, than you are a bigot asshole." And reason number two; because i knew what was going to happen on the forums, and it did. Ellie is now portrayed as a flagship gay character, a symbol of new era of gay representation in video games. That's fine and more power to those folks, but i've got a feeling that i'am loosing my view of Ellie as a badass post-apocalyptic, her 'LGBT poster-child role' replacing it. When i get to the Ellie and Riley kissing, i don't see it as cute anymore, but i start to thinh:"This is where this whole controversy started". Or to put it differently; i see Ellie less and less like my favorite female game character, and more like a political person for other people's interest. And so, i'am becoming less and less connected with her, her badassery steping aside. Now go on, internet. Bring it on, and write a whole damn essey on what a horrible, narrow-minded, 15 years old homophobic person i am. But i don't care. this is my opinion, even if it's just pi**ing in the wind. 

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    • 89.142.177.93 wrote:
      Well i don't agree with anything above. If i'am honest, i don't give two s**** if i am in the minority on this. I don't like her to be gay-->there, i said it. Why? There are a couple of reasons. First; that is not how i imagined relationship between Ellie and Riley, at all. Their 'best friends' relationship was established so well in the comics and the main game, that this revelation in the DLC felt to me like a cheap trick, just another shock factor to make it more interasting. Why to go in different way, when everything was already eastablished? I know this is not how Druckmann intended it to be, but to me, it really felt this way. Yes, i made a picture of those two in my mind, so when it was revealed to be otherwise, i felt tricked. Like in the sense: "You thought about this in this way? Well to bad for you, bud. It's not like that. Deal with it, if everyone is prasing it, so you should to. And if you not, than you are a bigot asshole." And reason number two; because i knew what was going to happen on the forums, and it did. Ellie is now portrayed as a flagship gay character, a symbol of new era of gay representation in video games. That's fine and more power to those folks, but i've got a feeling that i'am loosing my view of Ellie as a badass post-apocalyptic, her 'LGBT poster-child role' replacing it. When i get to the Ellie and Riley kissing, i don't see it as cute anymore, but i start to thinh:"This is where this whole controversy started". Or to put it differently; i see Ellie less and less like my favorite female game character, and more like a political person for other people's interest. And so, i'am becoming less and less connected with her, her badassery steping aside. Now go on, internet. Bring it on, and write a whole damn essey on what a horrible, narrow-minded, 15 years old homophobic person i am. But i don't care. this is my opinion, even if it's just pi**ing in the wind. 

      I respect your opinion although I hope you're not really a homophobe.

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    • TL;DR response to the homophobe: Ellie is no longer the way I imagined her personally and I'm going to cry about it.

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    • 69.242.99.38 wrote:
      TL;DR response to the homophobe: Ellie is no longer the way I imagined her personally and I'm going to cry about it.

      Bingo. I can't believe the entitlement. Not every character in every story is going to end up "how you imagine." Like, what do these people want? A personal apology from ND for writing a gay character? Wtf. They're externalizing a problem that is entirely their own.

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    • Unless anybody minds, could you share the link of the source where Neil Druckmann states that Ellie is absolutely gay, because folks on this thread are saying he said she is 100% gay and not taking into consideration that she might be bisexual.

      Something that I thought we should take note of is the fact that Riley didn't mind the kiss. In fact, judging by her reaction, it seemed as if she may have liked it/wanted it to happen. I think these girls just kind of like who they like and that's it. They probably aren't strictly gay. 

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    • I think it was on purpose by Naughty to tackle todays issues, just like how David tried to rape Ellie. Naughty Dog isn't afraid of confronting issues, just in a hidden twisted way.

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    • To all of you saying that Ellie is more than likely bi because you think she doesn't care about gender, it's called being pansexual, not bisexual. Exact definition: Pansexuality is not limited or inhibited in sexual choice with regard to gender or activity / a person who is sexually inclusive in this way. In simpler terms: Loving someone regardless of their gender. For bisexual, the exact definition: Sexually attracted to both men and women / a person who is sexually attracted to both men and women. See the difference? So, yeah, instead of deeming her bi because you think she doesn't care about gender, please use the correct term and deem her pansexual. 

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    • Tommygoogy
      Tommygoogy removed this reply because:
      .
      10:01, March 2, 2015
      This reply has been removed
    • “Now when I was writing it I was writing it with the idea that Ellie is gay, and when the actresses were working they were definitely working with the idea that they’re both attracted to each other. That was the subtext and intention that they were playing with from the opening cinematic when they’re holding each other’s hands for too long, or when Riley bites her on the neck; there’s that chemistry there from the get go that was important for us so that we earned that moment when they kissed each other. So that it wasn’t just out of the blue but also wasn’t so overt that you’re like “Oh of course. Just get on with it.”

      “It is a little strange when I read stuff like 'Oh girls are just confused at that stage.' or 'They’re still finding themselves.' You could spend your whole life finding yourself.

      "Again I think it’s weird because if Riley was a boy this debate wouldn’t be happening. No one would say “Oh maybe it’s just a friendly kiss.” No one would question that. I think even if it was two boys I don’t think anybody would question it."

      -Neil Druckmann. Full Interview: [X]

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    • MayonnEgg wrote:
      “Now when I was writing it I was writing it with the idea that Ellie is gay, and when the actresses were working they were definitely working with the idea that they’re both attracted to each other. That was the subtext and intention that they were playing with from the opening cinematic when they’re holding each other’s hands for too long, or when Riley bites her on the neck; there’s that chemistry there from the get go that was important for us so that we earned that moment when they kissed each other. So that it wasn’t just out of the blue but also wasn’t so overt that you’re like “Oh of course. Just get on with it.”

      “It is a little strange when I read stuff like 'Oh girls are just confused at that stage.' or 'They’re still finding themselves.' You could spend your whole life finding yourself.

      "Again I think it’s weird because if Riley was a boy this debate wouldn’t be happening. No one would say “Oh maybe it’s just a friendly kiss.” No one would question that. I think even if it was two boys I don’t think anybody would question it."

      -Neil Druckmann. Full Interview: [X]


      Thank you very much. That makes everything very clear now. It makes a lot of sense. See, I did, believe it or not, sort of feel like there was some special chemistry between them from the opening cinematic, as Neil had apparently intended. Thanks again for posting that, buddy.

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    • Gear3ful wrote:
      I don't totally agree that Ellie is a lesbian. I my opinion (and i have said that way too many times already) Ellie loves people because of their character and who they are, regardless of their gender or race.

      Well, yeah I thought the same thing, but Naughty Dog kind of confirmed that she is actually a lesbian. Not bi or anything, straight up lesbian. Anyways, I don't mind.

      'Tis good to be back on here.

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    • 69.242.99.38 wrote:
      TL;DR response to the homophobe: Ellie is no longer the way I imagined her personally and I'm going to cry about it.

      He's not a homphobe, okay? He disagrees with you and Naughty Dog, that's fine. It doesn't mean he hates the gay.

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    • MvdVeen wrote:
      69.242.99.38 wrote:
      TL;DR response to the homophobe: Ellie is no longer the way I imagined her personally and I'm going to cry about it.
      He's not a homphobe, okay? He disagrees with you and Naughty Dog, that's fine. It doesn't mean he hates the gay.


      Yeah. I totally understand why he would've felt betrayed by Naughty Dog (not saying I felt that way. I really didn't mind at all).

      After all this, the fact that Ellie is a lesbian shouldn't be something that changes her character; it's just something that adds onto it. :)

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    • I love how when a teen guy and teen girl fall in love, people are like "oh it's love at first sight! How touching!" And when it's two guys or two girls, then it's always "they must be confused/just in a phase". We live in a strange world.

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    • MvdVeen wrote:
      69.242.99.38 wrote:
      TL;DR response to the homophobe: Ellie is no longer the way I imagined her personally and I'm going to cry about it.
      He's not a homphobe, okay? He disagrees with you and Naughty Dog, that's fine. It doesn't mean he hates the gay.

      A character being gay isn't a thing you can really "disagree" with. This person had a problem with Ellie being gay, and didn't know how to deal with it. That's their problem, but it's not a matter of "disagreement." That's like saying "I disagree with Ellie having red hair." It makes no sense. These people have to ask themselves why a character being revealed to be gay bothers them. Because if someone actually feels "betrayed" or "tricked" by this, then it means at some level they see being gay as a negative. Maybe they're not full-on homophobes, but they clearly have some issues to work out.

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    • Brainwasher5 wrote:
      I love how when a teen guy and teen girl fall in love, people are like "oh it's love at first sight! How touching!" And when it's two guys or two girls, then it's always "they must be confused/just in a phase". We live in a strange world.

      Well if that's a bad thing, then I'd say we've come a long way, because before then people saw that stuff and flipped out.  I say this, but not to assume that you're implying that it's a bad thing; I just felt like responding to this for no real reason. :P

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    • MayonnEgg wrote:
      MvdVeen wrote:
      69.242.99.38 wrote:
      TL;DR response to the homophobe: Ellie is no longer the way I imagined her personally and I'm going to cry about it.
      He's not a homphobe, okay? He disagrees with you and Naughty Dog, that's fine. It doesn't mean he hates the gay.
      A character being gay isn't a thing you can really "disagree" with. This person had a problem with Ellie being gay, and didn't know how to deal with it. That's their problem, but it's not a matter of "disagreement." That's like saying "I disagree with Ellie having red hair." It makes no sense. These people have to ask themselves why a character being revealed to be gay bothers them. Because if someone actually feels "betrayed" or "tricked" by this, then it means at some level they see being gay as a negative. Maybe they're not full-on homophobes, but they clearly have some issues to work out.

      He disagrees with ND's opinion that making Ellie was a good idea. I'm not saying she's not gay or anyone except for Neil Druckmann can change that, but disagreeing with their actions is a possibility. I know, I should've made that clearer, sorry.

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    • MvdVeen wrote:
       
      He disagrees with ND's opinion that making Ellie was a good idea. I'm not saying she's not gay or anyone except for Neil Druckmann can change that, but disagreeing with their actions is a possibility. I know, I should've made that clearer, sorry.

      That's the thing- a character being gay doesn't need to have some grand justification as a "good idea." It's just an aspect to a character. From interviews, it appears it was for pretty organic, practical narrative reasons that Ellie eventually was revealed to be a gay character, but they could literally have just said "yeah, we just felt like writing a gay character," and that would be perfectly fine too. Like, she's gay, not a secret serial killer or something- it changes nothing about who she is as a human being. Again, it's like people arguing that her having reddish hair isn't a "good idea" or the "right move" for her character by ND. It's not a matter of agreement/disagreement but of acceptence/non-acceptence of an objective fact about a character. 

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    • I don't think Ellie being gay is a bad thing at all. In fact, it is a good thing, because not only is a gay character not usually in video games, it makes that connection between Ellie and Riley more meaningful.

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    • I am not writing to discriminate or promote so please think before you interpret. Ellie being a homosexual is not a good or bad thing. If a human being loves another human being regardless of gender and/or race then that is a natural right and is considered to me a NORMAL thing not something else Homosexuality is just as normal as heterosexuality which is why I am okay with it

      There are 4 reason why I am not: 1- some people use it to become the centre of attention. 2- some people use it to falsely make certain individuals look bad. 3- some people use it as an excuse for their bad behaviour. 4- some people pretend to be what they are not for drama. I have witnessed these reasons first hand. So if Neill Druckmann wrote Ellie to be gay for a political reason based on someonelse asking him to do so for attention and as an excuse for something completely irrelevant then that is sad. If he wrote Ellie to be gay because it suited her as a character as an idea for the story, then that is fine, but Ellie being bisexual is just plain greedy.

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    • Funny how whenever there's a straight relationship in any media whatsoever, absolutely no one complains about it being shoved in their faces--but when the relationship is gay, people claim that said media has a "political" motivation.

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    • It's just acknowledging that a group of people exist, it's not politically motivated.

      We don't see Riley and Ellie standing up against homophobia, or anything like that. They're just gay.

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    • Does it really matter anymore, so Ellie and Riley kissed... it's no big deal, and while yes, some say it's wrong and say that Ellie and Riley are gay, you know what (parden my word choice) fuck those guys. Thats just their thinking, not your, everyone is entitled to their own thoughts, but come guys... a KISS! It could of been worse, let's just get over it.

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    • 69.245.150.222 wrote:
      Does it really matter anymore, so Ellie and Riley kissed... it's no big deal, and while yes, some say it's wrong and say that Ellie and Riley are gay, you know what (parden my word choice) fuck those guys. Thats just their thinking, not your, everyone is entitled to their own thoughts, but come guys... a KISS! It could of been worse, let's just get over it.

      I agree, You also got to take into thought the times they lived in... anyone would of done the same.

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    • Did they mo cap the kissing scene?? xD

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    • People are so fucking stupid....freaking out over a fucking lesbian kiss...What's the fucking problem? It's just like a guy kissing a girl, and you know what? I think it matches that Ellie is lesbian(or bi), she always acted tomboy-ish during the game. Also the game could use without romance? Uhh...I find it hard to believe that anyone is bitching just because of the creators throwing in romance, otherwise they would also bitch about Joel and Tess, Tommy and Maria, and so on. Oh and "if she loved her as a girlfriend and not as a friend she would be more traumatized?" dude seriously? Who are you to say she isn't and is just hiding it? 

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    • Every person got their own opinion so you can't blame them if they're freaking over a fucking lesbian kiss

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    • 95.187.74.249 wrote:
      Did they mo cap the kissing scene?? xD

      I can't imagine why they wouldn't.

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    • JuniperAlien wrote:
      Spoiler warning- This discussion will be talking about a controversial topic that happened in the Left Behind DLC. Do not read ahead if you have not played the game. Also, this may spark some debates and unkind arguments so please try to keep this as civilized as possible. Also, I may swear now and then, so please excuse my language, but this has gotten me furious.

      Anyway, I'll begin to cover this topic and what I and many other supporters think about this. Okay, so many of you know that Riley and Ellie both kissed in the Left Behind DLC. Personally, I remember reading about it, but I thought they meant like a kiss on the cheek after Riley was bit or something. However, the more I played the game and realized the chemistry between the two teenagers, I began to speculate that they very well might kiss on the lips when the time came. Any who, the two girls did kiss and I, personally, thought it was adorable and cute. If anything, it made me sympathize for Ellie even more because it wasn't just her friend that died, it was someone she really cared about and so many people are overlooking that. For you to say that the kiss ruined the whole game, I got to wonder how you even got through life without being miserable.

      So, let me say this: For most of you who are saying that Ellie isn't a lesbian for kissing Riley and that she was just "in-the-moment" and "super excited" that Riley was staying. Uh, no. Do you kiss you friends on the mouths every now and then when you're excited for them and say, "Oh no, I'm not gay, I'm just super excited."? Didn't think so, and if you do, you need to reevaluate yourselves and this game.

      People turn really ignorant when they talk about something they just don't understand. For instance, people aren't considering this post-apocalyptic world Ellie and Riley live in. You know times are tough, "morals" and "teachings" aren't the same anymore, and once two girls kiss, these "fans" forget that and turn completely clicker-insane (blind like them as well). What I'm trying to get at is that this is a completely different world that Ellie and Riley were born into and I'm pretty sure bullshit like "gay is wrong" wasn't taught to them growing up. All they've done is board at a military school and see bloodshed. So they don't see each other as "lesbian teenagers" they just see each other as two individuals that are completely in love with one another and I think that's awesome, because that's exactly how reality would work. Another thing people seem to not acknowledge is that there are other girls out there who actually feel this way today.

      NOW, to the people who are calling something like this "cliche", you must be losing your heads. If something like this was so cliche, it'd be okay with everyone. However, it's not okay with everyone so therefore, it's not a cliche; It's something that is rarely seen: Two young female protagonists, one who isn't busty and over-sexualized, and the other, who is African American; I believe this is a subconscious reason why most people act up. I bet if it were two blond women with really big boobs and and mini-skirts and tank tops, the world would throw a party for it. But it's not, and that's why people are so upset. People may want to lie and say it isn't true, but it completely is. It's how America is.

      It's always like that in entertainment, when something new is shown to the public they try not to understand it simply because they don't and it ticks me off. Use the thing inside your head people, it works. It was something new and adorable, and I support it one-hundred percent and I'm glad NaughtyDog did it. All the homophobes and racists who are saying ignorant crap can close the door on their way out.

      THANK YOU!!!

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    • 95.187.74.249 wrote:
      Did they mo cap the kissing scene?? xD

      Why wouldn't they?  Not everyone who isn't a part of the LGBTQ community some a**hole who says "No homo" after doing something that might be interpreted as homosexual.

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    • JuniperAlien wrote:

      Erhaby wrote:
      How am i a homophobe and a racist for thinking that this dlc was a cheap move by naughtydog to pander to certain political groups for profit? 

      Bro, nonono. The comment was directed to people who made homophobic and racist comments towards the game because of the whole situation. It wasn't personally towards you, Jesus, lol. 

      If you hated the game for that reason and that reason only, then this topic isn't even for you. As you can see, it's only targeted towards the people who based their whole like for the game on that one situation.

      I AM A CLICKER DO YOU TASTE LIKE PIZZA!?!?! I HOPES I HAVE MY FOODS

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    • Brainwasher5 wrote:
      Funny how whenever there's a straight relationship in any media whatsoever, absolutely no one complains about it being shoved in their faces--but when the relationship is gay, people claim that said media has a "political" motivation.

      If Riley was a boy, barely anyone would have had a problem with that...

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    • If Riley were a straight black boy, believe it or not there are still people who would still take offense to that.

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    • Brainwasher5 wrote:
      If Riley were a straight black boy, believe it or not there are still people who would still take offense to that.

      Indeed. They probably would have called that pandering to the African-American community...

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    • Personally I wasn't bothered by it in the slightest, and I think all the people who are are being rather silly.  As to whether the two girls are lesbians:  my gut says that Riley definition is.  Don't ask me why.  That's just the vibe I was getting.  As for Ellie; she strikes me more as just a young girl who isn't quite sure about her sexuality yet (and probably hasn't had much time to think about it), especially since she refered to a guy as "handsome" at an earlier point in the game.  Don't get me wrong, there's no question that the kiss she gave Riley was sexual in nature, but to take that as an indicator of her general sexual preferences would be jumping the gun.  It's possible that as she matures a little more, she'll come to realise her attraction toward the same sex outweighs any appreciation she might have for the features of the opposite, and it's also possible that she's quite straight and any relationship she might have had with Riley would just have been an experiment.  And of course it's possible that she likes both.  The real question is: WHY THE HELL DOES IT MATTER?  Seriously, either the girl is gay or she isn't, but if it makes a difference to you either way, there's something seriously wrong with you.  

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    • I'm straight, but I can still appreciate a man for being handsome. A girl calling a man handsome does not automatically make her straight.

      This is a topic that, for whatever reason, is brought up persistently and repeatedly. The people who made this game have stated that Ellie is gay. Let's move on. 

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    • 109.79.237.37 wrote:
      Personally I wasn't bothered by it in the slightest, and I think all the people who are are being rather silly.  As to whether the two girls are lesbians:  my gut says that Riley definition is.  Don't ask me why.  That's just the vibe I was getting.  As for Ellie; she strikes me more as just a young girl who isn't quite sure about her sexuality yet (and probably hasn't had much time to think about it), especially since she refered to a guy as "handsome" at an earlier point in the game.  Don't get me wrong, there's no question that the kiss she gave Riley was sexual in nature, but to take that as an indicator of her general sexual preferences would be jumping the gun.  It's possible that as she matures a little more, she'll come to realise her attraction toward the same sex outweighs any appreciation she might have for the features of the opposite, and it's also possible that she's quite straight and any relationship she might have had with Riley would just have been an experiment.  And of course it's possible that she likes both.  The real question is: WHY THE HELL DOES IT MATTER?  Seriously, either the girl is gay or she isn't, but if it makes a difference to you either way, there's something seriously wrong with you.  

      This is the perfect comment that I couldn't find the words to say. Also to the person above me, he/she didn't say that it did make her straight.

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    • My issue is much more with how soooooooooo many people who come to this wiki give detailed reasons why they think Ellie is not gay, while the developers have already stated, verbatim, that she is. You may as well wave a green piece of paper around telling everyone it's brown. 

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    • 109.79.237.37 wrote:
      The real question is: WHY THE HELL DOES IT MATTER?  Seriously, either the girl is gay or she isn't, but if it makes a difference to you either way, there's something seriously wrong with you.  

      It matters because we hardly ever see gay characters in games. It matters because representation matters. And, for others, it matters because people shouldn't just constantly be playing as characters who are just like them.  Maybe it doesn't matter to you, because you have the luxury of seeing characters that are like you all the time. But it mattered a lot to some people. Just check out this interview with Ashley Johnson, where she talks about how she broke down watching a lets play by a lesbian gamer who tearfully said, post-kiss "if only I could have played this when I was 12- when I was her age." It's a powerful thing to see yourself reflected in characters- it's a little afirmation that you exist, and your experiences, your feelings, are valid. Unfortunately, we don't live in a perfect world where those affirmations are equally distributed.

      I don't think there's anything "seriously wrong" with gay gamers who are, quite justifiably, happy to see such a fully-realized gay character in a AAA game. I don't think there's anything wrong with straight gamers who are happy with the representation, either. I don't think there's anything seriously wrong with people assuming that Ellie is gay because all signs in the story pretty glaringly point in that direction (not to mention ND confirming this- and no, commenting that a guy you knew "used to be pretty handsome" when he was younger is not an indication of sexual preference), rather than coming up with random explanations for her possible not-gayness that are more rooted in personal anecdotes and biases than in anything that actually happens in the story.

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    • Brainwasher5 wrote:
      My issue is much more with how soooooooooo many people who come to this wiki give detailed reasons why they think Ellie is not gay, while the developers have already stated, verbatim, that she is. You may as well wave a green piece of paper around telling everyone it's brown. 

      So.Much.This.

      Apparently believing that a fictional 13-year old girl will maybe someday, in her entirely fictional existence, bang a dude rather than exclusively women is the hill some people have chosen to die on.

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    • I think people just need to remember that, just because she is a lesbian, it does not change Ellie as a character. And if you try to disagree with this idea, then play the main game again. You'll see that, even though you now know she is a lesbian, she hasn't changed. She's still the same Ellie we know and love. We just now know a little more about her. That's all.

      This doesn't change Ellie, it just adds onto her character.

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    • Can you imagine if people kicked up such a fuss, repeatedly, over if someone was revealed to be straight? What a world we'd live in.

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    • 89.180.30.75 wrote:
      People are so fucking stupid....freaking out over a fucking lesbian kiss...What's the fucking problem? It's just like a guy kissing a girl, and you know what? I think it matches that Ellie is lesbian(or bi), she always acted tomboy-ish during the game. Also the game could use without romance? Uhh...I find it hard to believe that anyone is bitching just because of the creators throwing in romance, otherwise they would also bitch about Joel and Tess, Tommy and Maria, and so on. Oh and "if she loved her as a girlfriend and not as a friend she would be more traumatized?" dude seriously? Who are you to say she isn't and is just hiding it? 

      Yes, because all tomboys want to get in other girl's pants.

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    • I actually think that the left behind story is the best love story in gaming so far. When i first heard about it i was a bit apprehensive because love and sexuality has always been dealt in a really unrealistic, vulgar and tacky way in games (just look at bioware and their mass effect and dragon age games, they handelt the romance stuff in a horrible "gamey" and oversexualized manner). I also feared that they would just stuff the lesbian romance in there in a superficial manner just to appear "progressive". But to my surprise Naughty Dog handled it really well and the romance felt very real and believable.

      I have to admit that at first i didnt like Riley, but over the course of the game she really surprised me and grew on me and as a guy i could really identify with her. Now i dont want to get all stereotypey, but Riley is obviously the "man" in the relationship, i mean she is outgoing and extroverted, whereas ellie is rather hesitant and introverted and doesnt has a lot of friend, she is also older and physically bigger and its obvious that she has the whole date meticulously planned in advance.

      So you would guess that the would take the initiavie and kiss ellie, but thats not the case, in fact riley does not pressure ellie at all, probably because riley is afraid and unsure if ellie reciprocates her feelings - now that makes her really likeable in my opinion - and in the End (just like in the winter chapter in the main game) it is Ellie that is courageour and takes the initiative, i really liked that.

      Throughout the whole date Riley provokes Ellie because she wants her to confess her feelings but she is too afraid to take the initiative, but everytime Ellie just shrugs her off or answers sarcastically. Right from the start: Riley points out that Ellie still has the Photo, Ellie doesnt react, Rile asks "do you want to woo me" in the Photo-booth, but Ellie answers "You wish", After loosing the Brick-Game Riley asks what it would take for Ellie to forgive her and Ellie answers it "would take a Space-Ship", Riley says that Ellie is the only one that can stop her from going, and again Ellie answers sarcastically. Now at that Point i was beginning to feel a bit bad for Riley to be honest, she is really courting Ellie and it just isnt working. At the end, in a desperate move, she plays "I got you Babe" and literally drags Ellie on the Dance Floor, i mean how much more obvious can you get, look at the lyrics of the song, Riley is practically proposing at that Moment, and finally FINALLY, Ellie says "Dont go" - i´m really wondering what Riley would have done if the Dance-Thing did not work.

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    • 141.48.183.119 wrote:
      ...At the end, in a desperate move, she plays "I got you Babe" and literally drags Ellie on the Dance Floor, i mean how much more obvious can you get, look at the lyrics of the song, Riley is practically proposing at that Moment, and finally FINALLY, Ellie says "Dont go" - i´m really wondering what Riley would have done if the Dance-Thing did not work.

      Great breakdown. Lol so true, poor Riley. I don't understand people who are like "omg there's no proof that Ellie is gay- it was just one ~friendship~ kiss!" Like, the whole freakin game (Riley parts) was basically an awkward first date. Seriously, how much gayer can you get than dancing on a table to "I got you babe", Riley giving up her dream of being a firefly to stay with Ellie, and then them kissing. If they made it any more obvious it would have been overdone. Good storytelling comes from SHOWING, not telling. And this was a masterful example of that.

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    • And another thing: for me, as the distant player, it was quite obvious, right from the start, that Ellie is also deeply in love with Riley. But the thing is, from Riley's perspective, and everyone who was in love in his youth will understand this, even if she is 99% shure that Ellie also shares her feelings, that 1% of doubt is enough to make you afraid und hesitant. That's why Riley is trying to stay cool and aloof on the surface but is at the same time making these little signs and remarks to Ellie in the hope that she will "connect the dots" ... And as to why Ellie doesn't take the initiative earlier: its clear that she is still hurt because of Riley's sudden disappearance (and their argument before Riley left) and of course she is also nervous and afraid (and probably a bit stubborn) as well - so no Ellie is not "confused" or "experimenting", I also don't think she is bi to be honest (just a gut feeling), she is gay and all the critics are in denial in my opinion.

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    • MayonnEgg wrote: I don't understand people who are like "omg there's no proof that Ellie is gay-

      Its also safe to assume that their relationship prior to Rileys departure was already very intimate (Ellie says "we were good, more than good" to Riley, now thats not something you say to a friend?). From their behaviour and the dialogue we can more or less construct what happened: they were very close, but Riley was unhappy at the school because she didnt wanna become a soldier, the night before she left for the Fireflies she started a fight with Ellie (probably to make the departure easier and because she was frustrated/felt guilty) - from Ellies behaviour and Rileys apology we can deduce that Riley must have said some pretty hurtful stuff (like "i only befriended you because I pitied you and you were lonely", something along those lines, at least thats how i picture it), but during her time at the Fireflies she realised that she cant live without Ellie (the first thing that she asks the leader of the Fireflies is if Ellie can join, but thats denied) - subconsciously Riley probably hoped that she would remain in the Boston Quarantine Zone (and so theoretically could always rejoin with Ellie), but when she gets the order to relocate to another city, that adds extra pressure and now she wants to know for certain if they could be together.

      Now lets see: to meet Ellie Riley practically crosses a War Zone, sneakes by military checkpoints, risks capture and certain death ... thats not something you do to see a friend for a few hours, thats something you do for someone that you love desperately when you are sure that he/she loves you back! And to all those people who say their relationship is just friendly: you are either very naive, deliberately obtuse or you have the most awesome friends in the history of the universe!

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    • I guess there are two main reasons that there is a "controversy" in the first place: 1. A lot of the gamers are rather young, they lack the maturity or simply don't (want to) get it. 2. A lot of the gamers and posters seem to come from America. Now I am German myself and I am often baffled when I read about typical "controversial" "issues" in America (religion, creationism, homosexuality) because this stuff simply does not matter in Germany AT All. They are gay and kissed, what's the problem? This whole discussion just feels alien and slightly surreal for me ...

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    • 92.20.167.187 wrote:
      I am not writing to discriminate or promote so please think before you interpret. Ellie being a homosexual is not a good or bad thing. If a human being loves another human being regardless of gender and/or race then that is a natural right and is considered to me a NORMAL thing not something else

      Homosexuality is just as normal as heterosexuality which is why I am okay with it

      There are 4 reason why I am not: 1- some people use it to become the centre of attention. 2- some people use it to falsely make certain individuals look bad. 3- some people use it as an excuse for their bad behaviour. 4- some people pretend to be what they are not for drama. I have witnessed these reasons first hand. So if Neill Druckmann wrote Ellie to be gay for a political reason based on someonelse asking him to do so for attention and as an excuse for something completely irrelevant then that is sad. If he wrote Ellie to be gay because it suited her as a character as an idea for the story, then that is fine, but Ellie being bisexual is just plain greedy.

      Given your explanations for why people are gay and your comment on bisexuals (whether that's as characters or as people), something tells me you really don't understand how sexuality works...

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    • Reminds me of the people who start any sentence with "I'm not a racist but"

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    • JuniperAlien wrote: Spoiler warning - This discussion will be talking about a controversial topic that happened in the Left Behind DLC. Do not read ahead if you have not played the game. Also, this may spark some debates and unkind arguments so please try to keep this as civilized as possible. Also, I may swear now and then, so please excuse my language, but this has gotten me furious.

      Anyway, I'll begin to cover this topic and what I and many other supporters think about this. Okay, so many of you know that Riley and Ellie both kissed in the Left Behind DLC. Personally, I remember reading about it, but I thought they meant like a kiss on the cheek after Riley was bit or something. However, the more I played the game and realized the chemistry between the two teenagers, I began to speculate that they very well might kiss on the lips when the time came. Any who, the two girls did kiss and I, personally, thought it was adorable and cute. If anything, it made me sympathize for Ellie even more because it wasn't just her friend that died, it was someone she really cared about and so many people are overlooking that. For you to say that the kiss ruined the whole game, I got to wonder how you even got through life without being miserable.

      So, let me say this: For most of you who are saying that Ellie isn't a lesbian for kissing Riley and that she was just "in-the-moment" and "super excited" that Riley was staying - No. Do you kiss you friends on the mouths every now and then when you're excited for them and say, "Oh no, I'm not gay, I'm just super excited."? Didn't think so, and if you do, you need to reevaluate yourselves and this game.

      People turn really ignorant when they talk about something they just don't understand. For instance, people aren't considering this post-apocalyptic world Ellie and Riley live in. You know times are tough, "morals" and "teachings" aren't the same anymore, and once two girls kiss, these "fans" forget that and turn completely clicker-insane (blind like them as well). What I'm trying to get at is that this is a completely different world that Ellie and Riley were born into and I'm pretty sure bull like "gay is wrong" wasn't taught to them growing up. All they've done is board at a military school and see bloodshed. So they don't see each other as "lesbian teenagers" they just see each other as two individuals that are completely in love with one another and I think that's awesome, because that's exactly how reality would work. Another thing people seem to not acknowledge is that there are other girls out there who actually feel this way today.

      NOW, to the people who are calling something like this "cliche", you must be losing your heads. If something like this was so cliche, it'd be okay with everyone. However, it's not okay with everyone so therefore, it's not a cliche; It's something that is rarely seen: Two young female protagonists, one who isn't busty and over-sexualized, and the other, who is African American; I believe this is a subconscious reason why most people act up. I bet if it were two blond women with really big boobs and and mini-skirts and tank tops, the world would throw a party for it. But it's not, and that's why people are so upset. People may want to lie and say it isn't true, but it completely is. It's how America is.

      It's always like that in entertainment, when something new is shown to the public they try not to understand it simply because they don't and it ticks me off. Use the thing inside your head people, it works. It was something new and adorable, and I support it one-hundred percent and I'm glad NaughtyDog did it. All the homophobes and racists who are saying ignorant crap can close the door on their way out.

      Dude/girl, I don't even know how to reply to this. I mean, when I come across something in a game, I'm like: Okay, that happened. Back to the game. I can however understand why you would think that people think Ellie to be a lesbian, even if she is, so what? Lesbian or gay aren't bad words, people just use it against you because they can't find anything else to use against you. Most people who love their same gender just love the PERSON, not the gender itself. I mean, if a mother and daughter (aged 6), kissed some idiot would go around saying: Incest. But they're kissing because they love each other; I'm no expert in relationships or ones affections to other persons, but I can tell that Ellie just loves Riley because... she's Riley.

      Thanks for reading, sorry it was so long. You know how f****d up our world is today.

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