A good reason for what? I know the difference. Do you understand how a comparison works? I was comparing DLC and the game in the fact that they both tend to go down in price over time, not saying that they're literally the same thing in every way. If I say something like "her eyes are really blue, like the ocean," are you gonna go on a long explanation of how a person's eyes are not, in fact, the literal ocean? ffs man. The map pack is now free, you seriously need to get over it.
Sorry, I just casually said that, not thinking about obviously you would have already looked for it! I remember seeing it on tumblr. But I just tried to search it there and couldn't find it. It was probably taken down as well, or if it's out there, it's really hush hush and unmarked. Now I'm starting to question if I really did see it or if my mind is mixing it up with the still shot that was released and the rest of the performance that was streamed, which I watched. Ugh, sorry to have caused the trouble! Let me know if you're somehow able to find it, lol.
Okay this was making me crazy so I actually ended up messaging a user on tumblr who would definitely have seen such a video (it's where I would have seen it at least) and it looks like I was misremembering :( . I must've been thinking of the rest of the performance or something. I'm sorry for all the confusion! I was so confident that I had seen it, though lol.
I knoooooowww :( I hope we see more from the creators of Avatar/Korra though. Even if they do a completely new cartoon series or something not related to the avatar universe. They're brilliant people and I wanna see more from them!
Hey! If you want to talk about the first two episodes of Korra Season 4, feel free to message me! I love talking about Korra and would love to know your opinions so far on the first two episodes! AHHHH!
OMG YAS! I'm really liking this season so far. It's feeling more focused on Korra and her journey/development rather than on a particular villain, it seems. Kuvira is obviously gonna be the villain, but Korra still has some profound things to overcome (ptsd, health stuff, general sense of purpose) before she can face that. One thing with Korra that I think it lacked compared to TLOA was that, since the seasons were such self-contained stories, the focus was usually on mostly just defeating the villain. She didn't change THAT much from season to season. But here it feels like there's really heavy stuff she has to overcome.
And OMG Toph! I had forgotten she was even still alive, lol. But then I remembered last season they really casually mentioned that she was off wandering the world or something.
Yeah, I agree. I definitely like that we're seeing true growth in Korra's character this season. I really liked how in ATLA there was a central villain that you knew about the whole series through. Don't get me wrong, I have found all of Korra's past villains interesting, it's just not as consistent as it was with ATLA. However, I like how we found out in Season 3 that there is a central theme connecting all of the villains and their motives which is that their motives have seemingly good intentions based on the idea that the world would be better off - more fair or more balanced between people - without an avatar. Like in ATLA the central villain just wanted power which is pretty cliche, but in TLOK Amon wanted equality, Tarrlok wanted to save Republic City, Unalaq wanted to honor the spirits and bring balance to the physical and spiritual world, and of course Zaheer felt that world leaders were overall oppressors and that people shouldn't be told what to do and that freedom was essential to happiness. But anyway, so it's interesting how this Season 4 is called Balance. I wonder how the world will find balance.. Does that mean Korra will give up being the avatar in some way? Is she really going to become the last avatar? I'm not sure. I can only imagine how the Series will end! AHH! SO SAD. According to P.J. Byrn (voice of Bolin) in an interview the Series finale will be "satisfying." So that's good :)
Something that me and Gear3ful were talking about was how it seemed like from the Season 4 trailer and from the first episode of the season that Korra seemed like she completely gave up being the avatar to the point where she wouldn't admit to people who she was (the guy in the Earthbending ring who asked where the avatar was). And it seemed like she cut her hair and changed her clothes to hide from people. But it seems like from the "Korra Alone" episode that that wasn't the case at all. I was SO afraid that Korra's mentality was going to be like "What's the point in there being an avatar? I lost to Zaheer. He was right.. Amon was right. Everyone I have faced is right.. The world doesn't need an avatar." But I was wrong and I'm glad I was wrong, lol. I was so relieved to see Korra wanting to get back to herself right away. I mean she admitted to being tired of trying but she said she wanted to recover and be herself again more than anything. Based on the trailer and the ending of the first episode, like I said, it seemed like Korra had completely given up and didn't want to be the avatar anymore. But that's not the case at all. She's trying her hardest to not only physically get back into shape but mentally trying to as well; as she's been meditating, traveling the world, facing her inner demons, even traveling to the Tree of Time in hopes of reconnecting with Raava. I'm serious, like I couldn't sleep that well Thursday night because I wanted to see what had become of Korra over the three years she was gone. I thought she was in a much darker place, but she turned out to be more optimistic than I thought which was such a huge relief! I've come to realize too that when she denied she was the avatar to that guy in the Earthbending fighting ring, she wasn't denying her identity as the avatar in that she doesn't want to be the avatar anymore.. I think she's just hiding from people temporarily until she figures out what's keeping her from being the avatar. She wants to work out all of her kinks before revealing herself to the world and she's doing everything she can to figure it out. I just feel so bad for her because even us as fans can't figure out what's going on with her. She wants to reconnect with herself so badly and it's so sad to see her struggle. It's sad too because as she was travelling the world she was avoiding that Dark Korra and then finally she was like "I'm going to end this" as a desperate way of "facing your fears" you know? And it didn't work.. :( She finally had the courage to face herself and it didn't work. Obviously we have found that fighting the Dark Korra isn't working and it's a mental block she has to get over but what that mental block is, we don't exactly know. Could it be the fear that the world doesn't actually need her? I don't know.. But it was sad to see her finally muster up the courage to face herself and.. she still lost.
Now, it's obvious that there is significant meaning in the hallucinations Korra had in the finale of Season 3 (seeing Unalaq, Vaatu, and Amon all telling her the world doesn't need her). But I am surprised Korra never mentioned that to Katara during her healing. Did Korra even once believe those hallucinations and what they were telling her? Like did it even faze her? I thought she would have let it get to her, but it doesn't seem like it at all. A lot of people predicted that too because of how she was crying at the end of the Season finale. I guess I feel like she was only crying because she felt like she let the world down, failed to defeat Zaheer, and that she was wheelchair bound.. and not necessarily sad thinking that the world didn't actually need her afterall. Because in "Korra Alone" she never once believed what those hallucinations told her. She was determined to being her old self again because she DOES believe the world needs her. But those hallucinations were so powerful.. they have to have meaning. But we haven't seen what they could mean yet.
Oh and something else I wanted your opinion on: Dark Korra (that hallucination she keeps seeing of herself in the avatar state with the chain around her arm). First of all, do you think it's all in her mind or that it's real like a spirit? And second of all, do you think the spirit is evil and trying to hurt Korra or guide her? I think her visions of Zaheer fighting her are part of her PTSD but I don't think the Dark Korra (I'll just call it that, lol) is entirely in her mind because of how that spirit dog-thing was able to see it. But whether or not the spirit is physically fighting her is confusing to determine.. Like in the swamp was she actually fighting a spirit or was she just freaking out? I know we'll find out soon what the Dark Korra is all about but it's fun to speculate. In a review someone said that Dark Korra could be a guide since it essentially guided her to the Earth Kingdom where she found the spirit dog who then guided her to the swamp to meet Toph. I had a theory though: I have a theory that Dark Korra is actually Raava. But because of the emotional and physical trauma to her body (bodily trauma could have severed parts of her chi flow that's responsible for allowing her to go in and out of the avatar state, much like Amon was able to do through blood bending) Raava has been severed from her and is kind of floating around in her psyche and projects itself into her environment. Because Dark Korra is portraying Korra at her most powerful - being in the avatar state. And so I feel like maybe the reason Dark Korra is fighting Korra is because maybe the Current Korra is essentially the "enemy" of the Korra she should be. It's like.. when the immune system in our bodies designed to protect us from viruses end up attacking our body (due to a virus like HIV) and tries to kill us instead of working to protect us. Katara should learn to use blood bending to manipulate Korra's chi flow and rearrange her chi so that her body will stop attacking her. lol jk that was random. Kinda made sense in my head though.. But the way the Dark Korra moved definitely reminded me of a spirit.. so I don't think it's all technically in Korra's head.
Okay, I have rambled enough. I look forward to what your opinions are! :)
Yeah, it's interesting how in TLA, it was all about "OMG the world needs its avatar!" with a reluctant avatar, and now TLOK is all about a really confident (in the beginning) avatar battling a world that keeps saying it doesn't want/need her help. I definitely like that they made real changes and didn't just try to rehash the same thing again, but in the end, I think TLA was just a little better executed overall. Even though I appreciate that Korra explores more complicated and challenging political themes.
I like that with this season, we don't really know how it will end. Like, in the past seasons, we were just kinda like, "well, she'll beat the villain and it'll be good," but now, it really does seem like she could be the last avatar, or something unexpected could happen. I mean, season 3 ended on such a weird, sad note, that it seems like they're really taking risks and doing exactly what they want to do story-wise, since it's the last season.
Yeah, she definitely is having a hard time recovering and is frustrated that she hasn't bounced back to being her old self again. I think the hair cutting and everything is also because she kinda feels ashamed that she isn't her old self. She doesn't want to be recognized while she's trying to reclaim her old self. She obviously felt embarrassed when she couldn't stop those two thugs for that fisherman guy. I don't think she's in as dark a place (like you said, it looked like she was seriously depressed before, and she probably was for a time,) but in more of an existential crisis. Like, she's trying to find out who she really is, and wants to be. She is motivated now by trying to become like who she was before, but I think she'll find that she'll never actually be that person again, because her experiences have changed her. But that doesn't have to be a bad thing.
The whole "dark korra" think confuses me a little. Like you pointed out, it is probably an actual spirit or something, rather than just a hullucination, since the little dog spirit thing saw it. I just can't put my finger fully on its significance. A physical manifestation of ptsd? Obviously we'll learn more with future episodes. I think with the hallucinations, it's just a constant battle for her, fighting those feelings. I mean, those hallucinations were coming from her own mind. I think that she's not at the point where she truly thinks that they're right, but especially at the end of season 3, I think she started to think "maybe they're right." She's battling that concept all the time now, since she tried to become like her old self again to prove that notion wrong, but she's not there yet. And if she never gets there then that would prove her worst fears.
I really like your theory on dark Korra. I think that makes a lot of sense. Like I said, I kind of can't think of any grand theory to what it is, lol. But your theory makes a lot of sense, it kind of reminds me of how when Korra first went to the spirit world, and it was all scary because of where she was mentally, but then when Iroh came the world around her shifted to be more welcoming. I definitely want to see Iroh again this season!
Yeah that's a great point you brought up about Aang being reluctant and the world needing him and how now it seems like the completely opposite with Korra, nice observation!
Yea that's true.. uuhhgh! not knowing how it will end is making me nervous! It feels like everything is culminating into something very serious and sad regarding the fate of the avatar and whether he/she is needed anymore and it's just so sad! And I don't mean whether Korra will live or die, I mean like.. whether Raava will remain apart of Korra by the end of the Season/Series. But how on earth are they going to wrap up this amazing universe? Assume the avatar cycle will continue on after Korra or.. be separated from human beings and no longer a reincarnated spirit? UGH!
Yea I agree that Korra is pretty ashamed and disappointed in herself.. Yea exactly, nice insight! In a review video I found on YouTube someone said that Korra is running from herself (Dark Korra) but I don't know if that's exactly the case because she's trying to be who she once was. But obviously her old self is fighting her new self. And you're right.. maybe she's trying too hard to be who she was, but the old self had a lot of flaws and perhaps relied on being the avatar too much and so maybe that's why the Dark Korra is fighting her? Hmm..
Ohh so you think as far as the hallucinations at the end of Season 3 stemmed from thoughts and insecurities she had had previously but they didn't fully come to the surface until she was being poisoned? I had never thought about it like that before.. I never once thought that Korra would think like that. She's always so gung-ho and serious about the world needing its avatar. So, do you think when Korra was recovering in the Water Tribe she was constantly depressed thinking the world didn't need her? Or do you think she was mainly just sad and disappointed in herself by being in the state she was in and couldn't be herself? Because at the end of Season 3 a lot of people assumed she believed in her hallucinations, but as we see her recover in "Korra Alone" she never really mentioned that insecurity. I mean she wanted to get back on her feet and recover as soon as possible. Maybe it was a fleeting fear but it wasn't something she genuinely believed in?
It's definitely nice seeing the original ATLA characters! It's so comforting and nostalgic :) and now we're going to see more from Toph! It's going to be great :) Do you still watch re-runs from the original series! I did last night in fact! It's great that the series is played all the time on Nicktoons haha
Yeah, I mean, it's the end of the entire Avatar universe... So who knows how they'll want to tie it all up. Maybe Korra will become like the new Raava... somehow? I don't know, haha. Maybe it was all a dream! Haha.
I agree that Korra isn't running from herself, she's trying to bounce back to how she was before she was traumatized and all that. So, she's doing kind of the opposite of running from herself. Maybe it's more that she's haunted by (literally) everything that that experience put her through. I think it's definitely more complicated than just the cliche of "omg she's running from herself!"
I mean, I think that the poison brought up her worst fears. Like, everyone has fears, and that just happened to be I guess her worst fear (that the world didn't need her.) I think she still hasn't consciously acknowledged that fear though, because she is so invested in bouncing back.
I think that when she was completely immobile she was probably pretty depressed. Like, she was in the most difficult sort of emotional slump she'd ever been in. Her whole identity has been put into question in her mind, and she feels and is pretty helpless. She wants desperately to just be able to bounce back, and every day that goes by with her NOT being better probably took a toll (I mean, 3 years is a long time, especially for someone so young, to just be practically bedridden.) And then to not have her friends with her, it was probably pretty isolating.
I know, I'm so excited for Toph! And someone pointed out a quote from her from TLA (I think the last episode) where she says to Aang, "do you think friendships can last more than one lifetime?" and aawww, she's being proven right! I haven't watched any reruns, but I did rewatch the series for a second time before Korra started, so I think I'll watch it again after Korra ends.
Yeah it was sooo difficult to see her going through that and beating herself up so badly. It's interesting how we've come to love Korra's headstrong personality, but in this season we see it being her worst enemy. You know what I mean? Because her stubbornness and pride is preventing her from moving on because she keeps beating herself up. She definitely has a fear of failing the entire world and places so much pressure on herself.
What do you think of today's episode!?? OMG! With all of the past elderly versions of the original ATLA characters (Katara and Lord Zuko for example) they act.. elderly and not really their younger selves. Which is understandable it's just.. not the characters we fell in love with exactly. But TOPH OMG! It was so nostalgic hearing the way she was talking to Korra and the Earth bending moves she was pulling off! It seems like she hasn't changed a bit! She's just more wrinkly :P haha. It was definitely a very cool episode. And I felt like Toph finally brought the nostalgia back for me from the original series. I can't help but feel that Toph is dealing with a lot of personal issues herself though. I mean.. why has she secluded herself? She says she can see whatever is going on and can see Lin and Suyin using the vines (which is confusing.. unless she can feel their vibrations through the vines and that's how she sees.. it seems like her powers got more powerful and intense as she got older.) I'm wondering if Toph is going to have a bigger role this season than previously thought because clearly she has some personal issues going on. That's the vibe I got anyway and I think Korra was able to tell. Toph has always been the realist and tough-love kinda person; and she's sarcastic. But she's never been.. negative. And it seems like she was really negative this episode. Like she told Korra that the world doesn't need her one bit, and then compared Korra's role in the world with her own career being a cop. Almost like she felt like being a cop didn't do that much good for the world because evil is always present and you can't get rid of it. And then the bit where Korra asked her why she's secluded in the forest, and Toph backfired and said she can see everything. There has to be a reason why Toph keeps herself from the world..
Oh no I haven't seen that video! Thanks for sharing! I'll have to check it out :)
Yeah I like that we really get to see the people that the gAang grew up to be. That reminds me, what happened to Sokka? Is he dead? He was such a fan favorite character and we've only seen him in flashbacks in season 1.
It was so awesome seeing Toph again! I like that they gave her an "older" personality that was still totally true to who she was. And I like that she wasn't actually a perfect mom or anything (and apparently Aang wasn't the perfect parent, either.) I thought it was really realistic. I mean, we knew them when they were 11-14. They weren't going to grow into perfect adults. I think Toph's seclusion really fits with her character, she was always sort of misanthropic. She had a prickly personality and was more introverted (the opposite of Katara, which is why they didn't always get along.)
The whole thing with seeing everything through the vines, I took that to mean that as she got older, she gradually just got better at "seeing" and now can see with her feet at a really high level, I guess? But then I see some theories online talking about Varrick making a weapon out of the spirit vines, and I think there's just something powerful and funky about those vines that maybe makes her able to see everything? Like, the vines are all connected all over the world, so when Toph stands on them in the swamp, she can see stuff? I dunno, I think it'll be explained though.
Yeah, it was sort of sad seeing Toph being sort of bitter about being a cop and all. She just seems really tired with humanity in general. Being tasked with saving the world all the time would be draining on anybody. Maybe she's a lot like Lin, in that she's kind of always been trying to help out everybody else, and she didn't take enough time for herself, and that's why she secluded herself? I dunno. I feel like they're gonna go deeper into Toph's character. I also really want to see her school Kuvira in metalbending, lol.
Yeah I'm not sure about Sokka :( I remember Katara saying something in the very first episode of Korra about her friends being gone or dead or something. I would have to rewatch it because obviously Zuko and Toph are still alive and I can't remember exactly what she said.
Yeah I agree! I like how they made Aang and Toph realistic in that they weren't perfect. Like the kids felt like Aang favored Tenzin more because he was an airbender and Toph had 2 kids from two different dads and all that.. It's very realistic. Yeah, do you think Toph has isolated herself in the forest for any specific reason? Like maybe she's ashamed of something that happened to her as a cop? Or do you think she's just fed up with humanity and that's why she isolated herself?
Yeah I hope they go more in-depth with Toph's character! We still haven't figured out the message she's trying to convey to Korra and I hope Toph either humbles Korra or perhaps Korra learns some kind of lesson from Toph's past. In this interview (it's about 10 minutes if you wanna watch it) of episode 3, the guy thinks that Toph purposefully made light of her job as a cop and of Korra's victories because in the grand scheme of things none of that really matters. I don't know how I feel about that. I mean, yes, obviously there's more to being the avatar than just fighting crime, but without Korra's intervention a lot of bad stuff would have happened. So I wouldn't say that they didn't matter.. just that there's more to her role as the avatar than fighting bad guys. And maybe Toph is trying to show her to slow down and listen to the Earth more maybe? I don't know. It seems like Toph went down a similar path to Korra because Toph was so gung-ho about fighting crime in her prime and now she's drained by it. Maybe Toph is trying to teach Korra to not be so hard on herself because doing so put so much pressure on her that she ultimately wanted to abandon it altogether. So maybe a lot of Toph's comments are just to psyche her out into thinking the world doesn't need her and that she's "the worst avatar ever" in order to humble her.
And that's another reason why it would be AWESOME if Toph came back and kicked Kuvira's butt because in a way it would be Toph's redemption for herself. Like maybe Toph retired prematurely because she was sick and tired of cleaning the streets and maybe part of her regrets it and now that she's had time to reflect in isolation she'll decide to come back and help the avatar. Because I don't honestly believe Toph meant what she said that the world doesn't need Korra. She was very supporitve of Aang's role as the avatar and I can't see why she would tell Korra that. And Toph knows the world would be chaotic without crime fighters.. Toph's probably just bitter and tired. And doesn't want Korra to suffer the same way if she keeps beating herself up for mistakes and letting her avatar duty consume who she is.
I don't know. I just felt like it was really sad of Toph to tell Korra that because Korra is so passionate about her calling as the avatar! And if the avatar doesn't matter than ATLA and all previous avatars don't matter! I REFUSE TO BELIEVE THE WORLD DOESN'T NEED AN AVATAR. lol I mean the world got along fine without Wan fusing with Raava but obviously in the world of avatar Raava and Vaatu are always present and always balance each other. I wonder what would happen if Raava no longer fused with humans to protect the world. Like how would Raava keep the world in balance then? Hm..
Sorry for taking so long to respond to this! I just looked at the avatar wiki and it says that Sokka is dead :(
Someone on tumblr pointed out that Toph also could have started to become more misanthropic after she lost her two main buddies from the group (Aang and Sokka.) She was never that close to Katara, and I think when Aang and Sokka both died she kind of lost her two best (and possibly only) close friends. So I think that had an effect on her.
I think when Toph was saying that about her being a cop and stuff, she was trying to get Korra to realize that, as the avatar, this is her life. Her life is just gonna be solving one crisis after another. Her job is never gonna be "done," and she needs to realize that that's just the way of the world. It's unrelenting. She's never going to solve everything. Toph obviously understands this from experience. I think this also explains Toph's jadedness towards humanity- she's freakin tired of having to save it again and again. I think also her being all "worst avatar ever" to Korra may also be sort of a reflection of her anger at losing Aang (I think he was only in his 40's when he died.) I think she's projecting a lot of anger and resentment there because Aang and Korra are technically the same person.
Yeah, I think the world definitely needs an Avatar. Especially seeing this week's episode, I mean, Korra needs to do something, lol. It's getting pretty real. Kuvira's becoming more and more power mad, it seems. I love how Suyin was just all "yeah just avatar state the hell out of this army," lol.
At the end of this week's episode, do you get the feeling that Zhu Li is conning Kuvira? I feel like she's not really betraying Varrick, but she's gonna do something awesome to sabotage Kuvira or something, because she knew that having Varrick stay there he'd botch any attempt at sabotage. And I was frustrated with Bolin because he was all brainwashed and stuff, so it's good to see him finally not on Kuvira's side anymore. It was especially frustrating when he was all "omg you're lying!" to Opal when she talked about what happens to the villages. And then he says later that he'd never "checked up" on the villages once they left. It's like, dude, maybe listen to your girlfriend who goes to these places for a living, lol.
That's interesting about Toph.. Hm.. Do you think Toph really meant what she said though? That the world doesn't need an avatar? She sounded pretty bitter saying it.. And I don't know why she'd say that and then help Korra get back to her old self.
You know what? They never talked about the Dark Korra! Do you think the Dark Korra will come back? It was definitely different from her Zaheer hallucinations.
Oh, and about Korra taking the poison out of her body. It was kind of confusing to me.. so did Korra basically accept her defeat and let go of her fear of failing again and that's how she was able to bend the poison out of herself?
lol! Yea I like how Suyin said that too lol. I totally wasn't expecting that romantic scene between Varrick and Zhu Li, LOL! I was on the edge of my seat watching that and then Varrick ruined the whole moment, lol. I don't know about you, but I felt like that whole romantic scene, as random as it was, was foreshadowing for Korra and Mako.. I don't know why. Not like, direct foreshadowing but it hints that there may be more romance later on in the show.
YOU THINK SHE'S CONNING KUVIRA!?? I hadn't thought of it like that.. Maybe she is! I was pretty convinced though that she was done working for Varrick. :/ Yeah I agree, that was frustrating what Bolin did.. He's very very naive. I'm glad he finally realized the error of Kuvira's ways though. I'm glad Bolin is finally seeing her true colors. Do you think Hiroshi is working with Kuvira at all? A lot of people theorized that because of the mechatanks but it seems like he's just been in jail the whole time. It was sweet to see Hiroshi and Asami bond over Pai Sho (spelling?) though..
Also, Korra said that the "old her" would resort to violence to solve issues. Do you think Korra honestly meant that, or do you think Korra is still scared of confrontation and fighting? She said that her fighting in the past made things worse and I don't really see how it made things worse. It's not like Amon, Unalaq, and Zaheer could be talked out of their agendas so I don't really know what Korra meant by that.
Yeah, I don't think Toph really meant what she said there. I think she's just pretty bitter about certain aspects of being a "hero" that people rely on, and with the fact that Aang died relatively young. But also, it may have just been a bit of tough love- she was always good at that, lol. Maybe she was just being mean to try to get Korra revved up to fight whatever she was going through.
Yeah that was weird that they didn't address dark Korra.... I guess we're just supposed to accept that that was a hallucination resulting from the poison left in her, but then, how was that spirit able to see it? I still really like your theory that it's raava or something.
I think your explaination of the poison is accurate. I mean, we learned that she was keeping the poison inside because subconsciously she was trying to avoid taking on the role of avatar again, because she likely may be hurt again. But then she finally let go of/overcame that when she reconnected with the kids.
Yeah, Varrick and Zhu Li have a weird relationship, lol. I definitely thing that obviously, Mako and Korra are gonna happen. I don't see them leaving that unresolved. Hope Bolin and Opal sort things out, too!
Yeah I just got the feeling that Zhu Li was saying all of that just so she wouldn't be separated from Varrick. She only started playing that card once she heard that they would be separated (her and Bolin were to go to a reeducation camp, and Varrick would stay behind.) Plus, she was totally sucking up to Kuvira and taking advantage of her ego. It was super out of character for her. I mean, I think she meant a lot of the things she said about her frustrations with Varrick, but I don't think she'd betray him now after all the crazy stuff they've been through. They've kinda been through rougher stuff before.
I don't know if Hiroshi is working with her! I never thought of that. He could be, or the writers may have just put in that scene to give some closure to what happened to Asami's dad and their relationship. It's the final season, after all. It was really touching to see her show some tenderness towards him, and it would suck to see him just become a villain again by working with Kuvira.
Yeah, I think Korra is maybe still a little hasty with confrontation. Plus, Kuvira is just an intimidating person, lol. I think Korra still doesn't wanna get hurt again so maybe she's trying her best to avoid fighting?
I’m sorry! I didn’t see this message you sent! You sent it like a month ago! I might be repeating old information and for that I’m sorry, lol.
I don’t know if it was foreshadowing but when Korra was reunited with Asami and Mako, Asami told Korra that she finally saw her father and then Korra was like, “are you sure you can trust him? He might be trying to manipulate you again.” So I wonder if that’s foreshadowing for something, but I don’t see how since he’s locked up. I don’t know how he’d have any contact with Kuvira. Unless somehow a long time ago Hiroshi and Suyin teamed up at one point and exchanged engineering ideas and somehow Kuvira got her hands on it after Hiroshi was imprisoned and after she gained more power. I’m not sure. I know that’s a farfetched idea, but yeah, that’s all I could come up with :P
It’s interesting how we thought that getting the poison out of Korra’s system would finally fix her of all her issues, but as revealed with the Kuvira fight, Dark Korra is still present! I had a feeling Dark Korra would be back! AND OMG! This last Friday’s episode was EPIC. I LOVED how she finally faced Zaheer! I think it was exactly what she needed to heal! Because while getting the poison out of her system was crucial for her physical healing and channeling the avatar state, it was even more important that she was able to heal mentally so that she can go in and out of the spirit world. There was a post on Tumblr of someone’s analysis of Zaheer’s therapy for Korra during that episode and it made me look at the scene totally differently. It’s a great read! It’s not too long, but I found it super interesting. Here is the link for it: http://ikkinthekitsune.tumblr.com/post/104009868047/ikkin-talk-to-me-about-how-zaheer-helped-korra-my
Again with Dark Korra, I think we’re going to see Dark Korra again. It STILL hasn’t been addressed. I think her healing is a three-parter: first she healed herself physically (getting the poison out), then she healed herself mentally (accepting what happened), and finally I think she needs to heal herself spiritually. I know Raava is strong within her again, but I can’t help but feel like her spiritual side still needs some healing. I used to think Dark Korra was probably Raava but it doesn’t look like it from this last Friday’s episode.. So yeah I think Dark Korra is some dark spirit.. some anti-Korra that spawned when Korra got injured. Like, I’m not sure if you’ve ever played Kingdom Hearts, but in the games when someone loses their heart to darkness, an anti-version of themselves is created in their place and it looks just like them but they’re like a black shadow. And so I wonder if that’s what happened with Korra. I think that’d be a freaken awesome concept if that’s how Dark Korra came about.
How did you like this last week’s episode?? I think it’s my second favorite episode this season after “Korra Alone.” Like it was just a brilliant idea for Korra to go to Zaheer for guidance because as they say, if you want to get over a fear you have to face it and that’s essentially what Korra did. And in that Tumblr post they go into detail about how some mental illnesses are specifically treated with Exposure Therapy and how Zaheer’s method for treating Korra was very similar to what therapists do for people with PTSD or OCD, etc. I didn’t exactly predict that Korra was going to see Zaheer but I had a fleeting thought that Zaheer would be totally upset to know that his actions caused Kuvira to gain as much power as she did and I was happy to see that Korra confronted him with that.
I was rewatching episodes today on gogoanime.com of Season 1 and I had some questions I wanted to ask you and get your opinion on. I know people/fans have been discussing Mako’s decisions regarding Korra and Asami to the point of exhaustion and repetitiveness so I hope I don’t go down that path. Because it’s obvious that what Mako did to Korra and Asami is old news and we’re in Season 4 already and it should be water under the bridge for the most part. But sometimes when I think back to it I still get confused. So I guess my first question is, do you think Mako found/finds Asami to be more attractive physically than Korra? Because Mako obviously had feelings for Korra before Asami came around, and then when she hit him with her moped he swooned all over her, totally forgot about his feelings for Korra, and went out with Asami it seemed like. Like, Mako didn’t fall head-over-heels for Korra when he first met her, but he sure did for Asami. I know Mako likes Korra for her strength and selflessness, etc. but as far as her looks, do you think Mako went for Asami because he found her more attractive? I know he also struggled with the idea of dating a teammate and kind of.. compartmentalized Korra as just being a friend BECAUSE she was a teammate.. But um, and then another question that ties in with this is, do you think Mako felt obligated to continue dating Asami, even though he wanted to be with Korra because her father was sponsoring their team?
I hope you're doing well! I'm looking forward to your response :) Take care!
Lol it's fine! In all honesty I got logged out a while ago and was too lazy to find my password and log back in, so no big deal haha.
Yeah I think I saw at least a quote from that tumblr post before. Count on tumblr to make everything about mental health, lol. But yeah I think it explains it really well. I think it's cool that they're actually addressing that she went through a traumatic experience and it has effected her, whereas a lot of shows just start off a new season hardly addressing stuff like that.
Dark Korra is so weird! I can't tell if we're supposed to just assume it's her mind hallucinating (her past literally haunting her) or if it's some sort of actual spirit, like you said. I like the Kingdom Hearts analogy, lol.
That episode was so good! And it was great to see Korra really confront those mental blocks. She's gone through enough now, I think it's time to see her start kicking some butt! And I like how Zaheer stayed true to his own philosophy and all in helping her to eventually take down Kuvira.
That's an interesting question about Mako. I personally don't really like his character (never have) so I might be too hard on him. But I always saw him and Asami as him going with the girl who he feels like he looks the best with to other people. Like, she's really conventionally pretty, rich, charming, sweet etc. Kind of perfect. He looks good with her. Not saying he wanted her as a trophy wife, but I think a lot of people don't just go for people who they like the most, but they unfortunately will often put too much credence in a person who will look good beside them to everyone else (someone who their "bros" will approve of, or whatever, lol.) I think Asami was just the "easy" choice. They look good together, her dad is sponsoring the team, etc. But obviously he has much stronger chemistry with Korra. I don't necessarily think it's him being more physically attracted to Asami, but more that Asami probably just looks more like the kind of girl that guys tend to imagine themselves with. Mako obviously wasn't immediately struck by Korra's beauty when he first met her, but his attraction to her probably grew much stronger than his inital, shallower one for Asami, if that makes sense.
Yeah I liked how Zaheer stayed true to his philosophy too. It made him realize that his mistakes (killing the Earth Queen) made things in the world a lot worse and I'm glad that he worked with Korra to overcome her mental block. I can't believe there is only TWO more episodes left!! :( SO MUCH is going to have to happen in these final two episodes! :(
Interesting insight. I can see that being the case (why Mako chose to go for Asami).
Remember this conversation in Season 1?:
Bolin: So what do you think of Korra, in a "girlfriend" sort of way?
Mako: She's great. But I think it makes more sense for me to go for Asami.
Bolin: I was talking about a girlfriend for me! Leave some ladies for the rest of us!
Mako: I know, that's what I thought you meant.
Mako: I don't know, Bo. It doesn't seem like a good idea for you to date Korra.
Bolin: You just said she was great two seconds ago.
Mako: Yeah, Korra is a great athlete and the Avatar and stuff, But I don't know if she's really "girlfriend material." She's more like a pal.
Bolin: Bro, you're nuts! Korra and I are perfect for each other. Okay, I don't care what you think I'm gonna ask Korra out.
Mako: Look, it just isn't smart to date a teammate, especially during the tournament. Keep your head out of the clouds and your priorities straight, okay?
What do you think Mako meant by, "I think it makes more sense for me to go for Asami?" Do you think Mako was shallow and meant like, because Korra isn't girly and feminine (aka the girl most guys imagine themselves with), and Asami was, and so it made more sense to him to go for her? Or do you think it's actually because Mako genuinely didn't want to date a teammate and didn't think it was a good idea to mess with the friendship dynamic within their team? Like I know you don't like Mako (I'm not a super big fan either), but I guess I'm trying to give him the benefit of the doubt here and analyze why he would tell Bolin "it's not good to date a teammate" if it wasn't true. You know?
And if choosing Asami was an easy choice, then how come Mako was so pained-looking when Korra asked him out and he said, "I'm sorry Korra, I just don't feel the same way about you?" Like did he pity Korra? Or did he wish he could be with Korra too but chose Asami so as to avoid causing drama within their team? Like it obviously bothered Mako that he wasn't with Korra, because as Asami was in his arms he looked at Bolin-asking-Korra-out jealously! So I guess that was another piece of evidence toward my thinking of, "well maybe Mako WAS being truthful to his brother about warning him not to date a teammate." And part of me also thinks that Mako just lied to Bolin and told him "yeah she's not really girlfriend material, she's more like a friend" to deter him from 1.) trying to date the girl he likes because he's confused about wanting to date her and isn't sure what to do now that he has Asami and 2.) trying to date a teammate and messing up their chances of winning the tournament.
I know I'm waaay over-thinking this, haha. It's just something I think about from time to time whenever I rewatch Season 1 and I've never really discussed it with anyone before!
I knowww I can't believe it's gonna be over so soon!
Lol I don't mind your over-thinking. I think Mako's saying it "made more sense" to be with Asami wasn't really even mostly about looks, but also personality. Asami acts more feminine and is overall just a much more "agreeable" person than Korra- she's pretty hotheaded. Asmami is thus kind of a "safe," choice, I guess. Obviously Asami's character has been developed beyond that, but in S1 her character kind of just was like that. AND I think it was also because Mako is a practical person, and didn't want to deal with the hassle of dating a teammate. I guess I think he had attraction/feelings for Korra but Asami, being so pretty, nice, a non-teammate AND related to a major sponsor just made her the most practical and convenient choice.
I also just thought that he may have told Bolin that not just out of practicality, but because he maybe wanted to avoid any more inter-team conflict because didn't their previous teammate leave on bad terms or something before Korra stepped in? Maybe he was thinking about avoiding that again.
Also, I'm glad Bopal is still going strong! Opal has become an interesting character, I thought she was kind of bland when she was first introduced.
Yeah you're right about Asami being more "agreeable." That's probably why Mako said she was "infuriating" and "drove him crazy." :P
So, how come you don't like Mako? Mainly because of his indecisiveness when it came to dating Korra or Asami? I mean, I know he's kind of.. bland and thinks he's so cool and charming and it comes off as conceited. I mean, he's not my favorite either I just like him I guess because Korra likes him. She definitely put too much admiration into a guy who was a jerk to her at first. But I feel like giving him the benefit of the doubt and assuming he's such a "tough guy" because of his difficult past. I don't know.. He's definitely a mysterious character. I guess I also like him because it's obvious he cares a lot about Korra just.. his past decisions make him difficult to be a fan of. I don't like imagining him being a shallow person though because we all know he loves Korra and he's been through a lot and so that's why I was trying to find meaning in his decision to choose Asami over Korra. But I think you're right, I think Mako is just a very practical person and realized that with Korra's personality, her being the avatar, and being a teammate that Korra was too much to handle for him and only saw issues with dating her. I guess he was partially right though because her being the avatar kind of contributed to their relationship falling apart. But at least he went with his feelings in the end. It's better to have known and lost then never to have tried. Do you wish that Mako and Korra will end up together in the end? Or do you wish that Korra will end up just being single?
Also, this is probably a really general question, but how do you feel about The Legend of Korra overall? Do you feel like it lived up to ATLA? Do you feel like the series was as complete-feeling and well-balanced as ATLA was?
I think I don't like Mako much because he just comes off as a sort of bland character overall just made to be a forced love-interest for Korra (at least in the first season.) Plus, I don't really get why they're somehow meant for each other? Like in TLA, they dropped a ton of hints at Katara and Aang ending up together, but they both went on their own paths to getting there (like, Aang was had a pretty big crush from the beginning, but it took a while for Katara to realize her own feelings) and in the end it felt completely natural that they ended up together. But with Korra and Mako.... They just kind of bicker for a while and then they're all "omg I love you!" It just seemed forced to me. But I know that also came from them thinking they only had 1 season of the entire series when they were making it. PLUS he was just really crappy in how he handled the love triangle. Like, wow Mako, you managed to really hurt two great people because you were too cowardly to make a decision. And I don't like how they frequently have him just playing the "clueless guy when it comes to people's feelings" role.
However, I kind of have warmed up more to his character, and I especially enjoy his interactions with Wu, lol. I could see him ending up with Korra, but I also think that if that's where they're going, they haven't seemed to drop any hints this season of it happening. I'm kind of not really invested in any of the relationships anymore, lol.
I really liked Legend of Korra, but I definitely didn't get as into it as TLA. The writing for most of LOK was just not quite as good. I like that LOK was pretty different, and dealt with different issues- it wasn't just trying to be TLA with a girl. I think I just didn't like the format of the seasons- everything having to wrap up by the end just made things feel rushed. I liked the epic feeling of TLA, the grand 3 season buildup made that finale amazing. Plus I liked that in TLA, they were able to make little episodes that weren't plot heavy, but character-heavy. In LOK, they just didn't really have time to do those things. But I still really like LOK, and I'm glad it was made, but TLA will always be my favorite.
Yeah I agree actually, lol. I don't really see how they are meant for each other either.. Yeah I've been a makorra fan since the beginning (just because Korra likes him so much) but I haven't seen much hints either of them ending up together at this point. I feel like Korra and Mako were probably "meant to be together" actually because maybe it has something to do with Mike and Bryan originally pairing Zuko and Katara together and having a fire/water couple. Like they wanted to create that firebending/waterbending couple that they were going to have in the original series.
Yeah I agree. The format of the seasons and having a different villain each season made it feel rushed and disconnected; even though I realize there's a connection between all of it. Why do you think they did that? Like how come they didn't create Korra to be formated like ATLA? Because it was only meant to be a mini-series originally? And yeah I agree I wish there had been more character-oriented episodes and side missions that had nothing to do with fighting a villain and what-not. Like the episodes "Avatar Day" and "The Storm" and "Tales of Ba Sing Se" among others weren't plot-driven episodes; they were more like side stories. It definitely made their journey feel more real because we got to see them being normal kids just doing normal things. Also, do you think Mike and Bryan will make any other series relating to the Avatar universe in the future? Have you heard or read anything? I haven't. I was just wondering if you had.
Winterlotus90 wrote: SOOOooooo.. what do you think of the finale?
Okay to answer your other comment first, I've read millions of things over the course of the show that Mike and Bryan have run into difficulties with Nick. I think they said their budget for season one was like half of what they'd had for TLA. That's probably why they went from having a real writing team in TLA to pretty much writing (at least S1) of LOK themselves. So I think they did the absolute best they could with what they had. I think also, the season shaving to have resolution is probably because Nick wouldn't renew them that much ahead of time, so until S3 I think they had just been writing the season finales with the idea that it may be the last episode of the series.
And I really liked the finale! HOWEVER I was kinda annoyed that Toph didn't show up again to kick some ass. But oh well, she did say she'd let the kids handle it. And even though it was kinda cliche, I did shed a tear when Asami's Dad sacrificed himself. And finally we get some closure with Varrick and Zhu Li! I thought it was really cute "will you do the thing... for the rest of our lives?" lol.
I was kinda hoping Kuvira would die though. I dunno, I guess with Korra saving her it was the most "Avatar" ending, but I was kinda secretly hoping that when Kuvira was on that weapon she'd accidentally kill herself- it would have been fitting irony.
+ I guess Korrassami is canon? At least, it looks like their relationship is headed in that direction from that final shot. I must say I kinda think it works? They've become a lot closer this season especially, so I think that final shot is showing their relationship starting to develop into more, I guess? I mean, it's left ambiguous but I got vibes (like them turning to look into eachothers eyes) that they're hinting at at least a relationship that is more than platonic. But I mean, who knows, they may just go into the spirit world together and play with adorable spirits and whatnot. I just like that the series ended with Korra happy, and getting a vacation already! lol.
But I saw it. I'm really happy about the ending. With something that I grew up so close to, I want to cry.
It's my wall, I do what I want! lol.
I'm sad to see it go, but I also kinda feel like, I'm ready for it to be over and for Bryke to move onto another, I'm sure, awesome project. It's been going for so long and we've all kinda grew up along with it, so it feels bittersweet but good.
But I saw it. I'm really happy about the ending. With something that I grew up so close to, I want to cry.
It's my wall, I do what I want! lol.
I'm sad to see it go, but I also kinda feel like, I'm ready for it to be over and for Bryke to move onto another, I'm sure, awesome project. It's been going for so long and we've all kinda grew up along with it, so it feels bittersweet but good.
Oh, I didn't even realize it was your wall. I thought it was a thread. Holy crap.
Okay, so when you said “so until season 3 I think they had just been writing the season finales with the idea that it may be the last episode of the series” that makes me believe that Korrasami was never intentionally cannon. With Season 1 being the only season there ever was supposed to be, and with Mako and Korra ending up together, that was supposed to be it. That was supposed to be the story. They were supposed to be together. So the whole Korra and Asami ending up together thing seemed like a platonic friendship was taken out of context, by the Korrasami fandom, and made out to be an actual ending.. due to the Korrasami fandom. I watched an interview recently where the interviewer was like “we want Korrasami” and Bryke both laughed it off and was like, “it’s a good ending, but we don’t want our story to be influenced by the media, otherwise it’d be a crappy show.” So… then why did they give us the ending that we got? I feel like.. Bryke just gave up and didn’t care. Or that the ending was left ambiguous knowing the shipping war that was going on. And maybe perhaps they favored the Korrasami ship more being that they made a bigger stink about it. I think if Korrasami is definitive then the scene with Korra and Mako wouldn’t have happened. It didn’t feel completely platonic the way Mako said it. Nor did it feel platonic the way Korra gazed back at him.
I don’t know. I don’t like the season finale very much. I know it’s going to sound like I’m homophobic (like how I probably came off with Ellie and Riley ending up together) by not supporting Korrasami, but I’m not. Like Ellie and Riley ended up making sense to me after all, but Korrasami honestly doesn’t.
Well first of all I feel like there were just a lot of loose ends:
Why was Dark Korra never really explained?
Soo.. Kuvira was defeated just by Korra taking the time to talk to her and she just gives up?
There was supposed to be a huge fight with Kuvira’s army but all we saw was a group of some small mecha suits go down and all we saw was the giant mecha robot. Like, remember when Kuvira’s army was at the front lines and General Iroh II was ready to attack? I would have liked to have seen a scene where there was an all out war going on between Raiko’s/Iroh’s army and the mecha suits/Kuvira’s army.
Bolin and Korra didn’t talk really at all this season.. And the ending of the SERIES should have been Team Avatar riding off into the sunset, and NOT just Korra and Asami. The whole friendship dynamic between them all was completed shafted. If romance was implied in the finale it was completely irrelevant because after Season 3 the team learned to become friends with each other. Korra and Mako became friends. And Korra and Asami became friends. The shipping should have died in Season 3. Korra should have ended up single.
Uhmm and Korra’s connection with her past lives is severed permanently? Even for any avatar after her?
What was the point of the spirit portal and like.. how could an explosion of some spirit vines possibly tear open a new spirit portal? Just seems random.
Korra never properly explained to Mako why she never wrote him back. “I didn’t know what to say” isn’t a good enough of an explanation.
Korra never apologized to Bolin for not writing back.
Bolin and Opal never shared a kiss.
AND Korra and Asami ending up together seemed honestly pretty random to me.
(There’s probably more things but I can’t think of them right now.)
Yeah I was expecting Toph to show up too kind of. The Zhu Li proposal was absolutely adorable I agree. With Hiroshi sacrificing himself, I totally thought he was going to kill himself AND Asami for some reason. But yeah it was sweet. I was so afraid that Korra was going to get hurt by the spirit gun thing. I kinda wish Kuvira would have died also, lol.
Okay, now on to the ending. I honestly thought there were hints of Korra and Mako being an item by the series finale. There were hints of it in later episodes of this very season. There have been hints of them still liking each other over EVERY season. I honestly feel like.. the creators catered to the Korrasami shipping fandom. Do you think so too? It’s just so ironic that they would do that, especially since Korrasami only became a thing really after Season 2 when Mako continued to make bad decisions. I honestly feel like people supported Korrasami out of hatred for Mako. I really do. Like even Bryke said that people were not happy at all about Season 2 and didn’t like the relationship drama. So what did they do? They ended up listening to the fandom screaming “we hate Mako!” Which is so unfair to Mako’s character development too because Mako has come a long way. His sacrifice in the finale had me choked up. He did it because his love for Korra and the way she inspires him influenced him to do so in my opinion. He still loves her by the finale end. It’s so obvious.
I understand and am not blind to the fact that Korra and Asami had a lot of alone moments in Season 3, but it sprouted up out of friendship. Like Korra said, “I’ve never have a girl friend before, except for Naga.. this is nice!” But I never thought it was anything more than platonic. I thought it was a nice way for the creators to make Korra and Asami reconcile their differences over Mako and become friends instead of enemies. Like that happens a lot in stories where two girls are betrayed by the same guy - they join forces and become friends. I used to watch Good Luck Charlie and Teddy and Skyler became friends when they found out they were being cheated on by the same guy. But to become lovers out of it? That just seems.. really random to me. Like how often does that happen in real life even? I don’t know.. And I don’t feel like Korra only writing to Asami was an indication of romance. I took it as she couldn’t talk to Mako or Bolin about what she was going through because Mako isn’t in touch with his feelings (not to mention they’re going through the after-break-up phase) and Bolin is a happy-go-lucky goof ball who wrote a bunch of silly things in his letters to Korra. Other than them, Korra only had Asami and their friendship grew a lot over the previous season so she felt like she could talk to Asami. Plus Korra was so in touch with her masculine side before that when Korra needed to slow down, and channel her sensitive side, she felt like she could relate to Asami more in that department. But in no way did I get the feeling it was romantic.
Korra and Mako also over the seasons physically touched each other a lot and were always standing next to each other in many group shots or within the same frame. Korra and Asami never did those things. If anything Asami seemed to try to be friends with Korra more than the other way around. It seemed like Korra shunned Asami a lot of the time too (until that final scene). Also, people say that Korra’s blushing when Asami complimented her hair was a sign of attraction. But I don’t think so.. I blush when men or women compliment me on anything. And I think Korra felt especially bashful because she’s envied Asami’s looks for a long time. Remember in Season 1 when Korra was like “besides, Mako is into that prissy, beautiful, elegant, rich girl..” she sounded really sad, like she wished she was her. So when Asami complimented her for once it made her feel good. Seriously, up until they held hands and walked into the spirit portal it didn’t seem like anything romantic was going on. When Asami was like, “I need a vacation” Korra was on board with it in an excited, “I need girl time!” kind of way. I just related this to a different moment in my head: Remember when Mako put his hands on Korra’s shoulders in Season 2 and said, “let’s go have a quiet dinner together, just the two of us.” He said it in a very romantic way with romantic gestures. But when Korra said it to Asami it seemed like “let’s have girl time and go on an adventure!” Korra didn’t put her arm around Asami or put her hand on her hand or her leg or anything, they weren’t touching or anything.. Like the way Mako and Korra said “just the two of us” was totally different. But again.. the hand holding and looking at each other.. uuuughh! It seemed SO out of place!
Again I’m not against homosexuality or anything but it was teased at for SO long that Mako and Korra still had feelings for each other. Like, otherwise what was the whole point of Mako telling Wu that Korra was the last girl he’s dated in 3 years? What was the point of telling Wu that when he thinks of her he’s still inspired by her? What was the point of the way they hugged when they reunited (they walked into each other, whereas Korra let Asami walk to her)? What was the point of Korra going with Mako (and not Asami mind you) to see Zaheer? Why did they pan in on Mako’s face when the cell door was closing behind Korra? And we cannot forget the way Korra looked at him (and the soft music box playing in the background) when Mako told her in the finale that he will always have her back. Also, Mako and Korra said that they would always love each other.. Once again, with all of that build up, and for it to not happen between Mako and Korra seemed like such a let down. It seemed so random for Korra and Asami to get together romantically to be honest (Sorry I keep saying that). In Season 3 they were just becoming friends, and in Season 4 like.. as far as we know Korra only responded to one of Asami’s letters and nothing definitively hinted as romantic implications. It was just too vague which makes the ending so random..Anyway.. yeah. The final scene was either put in at the last minute or wasn’t executed right, or something. Something is missing. I’m not the only one who feels this way. I’m sure you have a tumblr and there’s a major war going on. And it’s not because we’re all homophobic or something which we keep being accused of.
It’s a shame the series finale had to end on a shipping war. I personally think it’s super stupid. If the creators weren’t sure what to do then why didn’t they just make Korra.. single? Did they ever think of that? Isn’t Korra independent enough to not to need anybody? I like to agree with a forbes.com article that said that in the finale Korra learned that true friendships are more important than true love. But people will continue to argue that the hand-holding and looking at each other are definitively romantic. Let’s say the ending is ambiguous and not meant to be definitive, how else are they supposed to animate friendship between two women (if that’s what Bryke was even trying to imply)? What if they had Korra and Asami hold hands while they walk into the spirit portal, but then stop holding hands, and just face each other? That would be kind of weird and impersonal. Or what if they just didn’t hold hands at all and walked into the spirit world side by side and disappeared? That would be kind of weird also. What if they walked into the spirit world holding hands and didn’t stop to stare at each other, like they just kept walking and disappeared? Would that have been satisfying? Ehhhh.. Something still wouldn’t have seemed right to me. But the ending we got still wasn’t right. I just don’t know how they would have animated them being friends either without it looking romantic. I don’t know, it’s difficult to picture. Again, assuming that Bryke’s intention wasn’t romantic at all, how else would they have animated it, you know? That’s what I was trying to get at. Like, if they intended for the ending just to highlight their friendship, I don’t think they could have done it any way without it looking romantic. Which is sad that people automatically think everything is homosexual. Like hand holding is also a sign of support so.. maybe it was just showing mutual support for each other? I really don’t know.
I would absolutely love to get someone’s opinion on the ending who watched the series from start to finish and who were not influenced whatsoever with shipping wars and tumblr and what not and see what they got out of Korra and Asami’s interactions compared to Mako and Korra’s. Makorra’s interactions could not be any more concrete. I feel like Korra and Asami’s is just too vague.. I’ve said this before but I can’t remember where (I’ve been posting my feelings about this everywhere so I’m repeating myself at this point) but.. I understand that if Bryke wanted to make them a bisexual couple that they probably couldn’t get away with making them kiss on a kid’s show. And that’s what a lot of people are arguing saying like, “just because they didn’t kiss doesn’t mean it’s not cannon. It totally is.” But they could have implied their feelings for each other (if it’s even cannon) a lot better than just walking off into the Spirit Portal together holding hands and saying they wanted to go on a vacation together. They could have said something like, “Asami, you mean so much to me. I care about you so much and I’m glad you’re in my life.” Or even saying “I love you.” Like that clearly indicates romantic feelings without the messiness of involving a kiss and the controversy that’d stir up. They could have solidified romance between them a number of other ways. But it was so vague. Also, someone said that when couples are in love, they intertwine fingers when they hold hands. And that’s what happened between Korra and Mako in Book 2. But when Korra and Asami walked off together, they didn’t do that. It seemed more like, “you’re my friend, we trust each other, let’s go.” Also, people were saying that the way Korra held Kuvira and was looking into her eyes was a sign that Korra had feelings for Kuvira -_- COME ON PEOPLE! They’re totally pulling at straws. People are going to see what they want to see so badly and not make sense of the evidence. Like maybe Korra is just a really compassionate, sensitive person. She even said she became compassionate toward her enemies, one of them being Asami. She loves people and she’s a very touchy/feely person especially this season. Korra hugged a bunch of people this season. She hugged Toph twice I think. She hugged the airbender kids when they found her at the swamp. She hugged Tenzin like twice this season. She hugged Suyin twice. She hugged Mako 3 times and Bolin twice. She hugged Asami twice. She held Kuvira in her arms. Anyway.. I’m rambling. But Korra definitely has become compassionate this season. Regardless, the ending was just too vague to me.
When you said “they may just go into the spirit world together and play with adorable spirits” did you get that from an article? Because I think I pretty much read that line exactly from an article I found recently :P Like io9.com or something? Or ign? Idk.
Do you honestly think the ending was left ambiguous? Because a ton of articles on the internet tend to say otherwise. But again. People are going to see what they want to see.
Also, another beef I have with the ending is that.. it just seemed like Korra was supposed to break out of stereotypes. Like a lot of people assumed that because she was a fighter and she was tough and strong and stuff that she was a lesbian. And if the ending is cannon well.. she ended up falling right into the stereotype that a lot of people thought she was. Asami was supposed to be a obstacle for Korra originally and I don’t just mean between Korra and Mako. Asami was the typical girl that society tells us we should try to emulate because by doing so we will get attention from boys. We should dress fancy and wear makeup, etc. And Korra disliked everything that Asami was about. Korra showed us that all we have to do is just be ourselves and we will attract the right kind of people. And she taught us that looks don’t matter – what matters is that we’re ourselves first. We’re not defined by our gender. And I feel like the ending was like well.. the “hot” girl won (aka Asami). I don’t know how else to better explain that.. lol.. And again it’s insulting when women can’t just be friends without something else being implied when nothing romantic at all was specifically implied either.
Again with Mako like.. it’s just so sad because, even though he made a lot of mistakes it’s like.. his character arc was never finished. It was just left open. Like Mako made a lot of mistakes with Korra and Asami but he also redeemed himself. He did something very selfless in the end and he matured a lot. But no, let’s not forgive Mako. Let’s not recognize how much better he became. Let’s just have his two ex-girlfriend end up together. It just seems like a very, anti-male, crazy feminist type mentality if that’s the case. I don’t know.. bottom like we have the scene with Mako and Korra and we have the ending with Asami and Korra and it really is ambiguous at the end of the day. But people who want Korra and Asami together are ignoring that part. While the rest of us are seeing everything. SO YEAH that’s my novel. Hope you don’t think I’m a douchebag. I truly do enjoy reading your input and I value your opinion. Thanks for reading. Looking forward to your response. Sorry it was so long, lol.
Oh yeah, I definitely don't think that they originally planned on Korrasami from the beginning. Obviously, if all we had was the first season, all we'd have is Makorra. But as the seasons went on, in my opinion it seemed kind of forced with them trying to get Mako and Korra back together over and over again and I think they realized that these characters just didn't work that well as a couple. So they moved to something else in S3 and then obviously in the finale. Who knows what made them eventually settle on Asami, but maybe it was similar to Ellie and Riley in that they just organically kind of realized that these two characters had a chemistry that could make for an interesting romantic relationship. I don't really think they were doing it to appease shippers because they pissed off a lot of other shippers with this finale.
I think with the scene with Mako, I think it's just showing that there's still maybe some tension there. He was her first love, so they're not going to be "over" eachother completely for a while, but I think that was them understanding that their relationship is now that of a devoted friendship type of deal, since the whole romance thing really didn't work out (multiple times.) They still love eachother without wanting to be lovers.
Well, I don't think it was so much Korra just talking to Kuvira that defeated her, but Kuvira basically being humbled and brought back to earth, with the destruction of her giant mecha suit and a lot of her army. She wasn't a completely evil person- she thought what she was doing was for the right reasons. When Korra made her realize that she was craving control because of her own emotional scars, she realized what she had become. Now that I think about it, I like that more than her being defeated by being killed. But I do agree that the whole battle just didn't feel as epic as in TLA finale. Part of what made TLA final battle so great was that everybody, including minor past characters, got their chance to kick some ass. Here, it was a comparatively smaller operation and I just wanted a bit more.
It would have been cool with her just being single in the end too. But at the same time, she's been (very much) alone for most of the last 3 years so I understand her being ready to embark on something new. And that's the thing- that last shot is the BEGINNING of them exploring a relationship together. They're just now starting. So it's not like there would be any grand indications of romance before then, ya know? But I agree that I would also be happy without the shipping altogether, but then again Avatar has just always had a heavy shipping component.
I think that Korra tore open a new spirit portal, like it was her avatar powers that did it? I dunno, lol. I guess her opening the spirit portal is what saved them both from the explosion.
And that's true about the past lives, I guess they're just really gone, huh? I mean, what does that mean for future avatars? I guess the next one will just have a connection to Korra.
AND YES WE GOT NO BOPAL CLOSURE that did dissappoint me. I mean, we know they're back together and all, but it would have been nice for them to have a moment. That's kind of what disappointed me a bit about the finale, it didn't feel like even important characters got real closure, whereas for some reason Prince freakin' Wu got a whole little conversation there. Like, Wu can be funny, but nobody cares, lol.
I agree that Mako still obviously loves Korra, but I just didn't see them actually getting back together. I think I just assumed they would because I wasn't giving LOK enough credit, and was thinking they'd just do the more predictable thing. Like I said before, they love eachother and still have a connection, but I think at this point they understand that they don't work as a couple. I mean, they tried like 3 times to make it work.
And lol, I did get that from an article, I think from io9? I didn't mean to but I guess it adressed my hesitation at being all "Korrassami is canon" since it was a tad ambiguous. I mean, it is ambiguous in that it isn's spelled out for you, but I think the implication is strong enough that most people would get it.
As far as the stereotyping, Korra is clearly bisexual, not a lesbian. I don't think that it's really reinfocing a stereotype about feminine/masculine women since that would make Asami, a very feminine woman, bisexual as well. I honestly think it makes sense for a person like the avatar to have the openness and capability to be with people of any gender.
I feel like this post by Bryan would answer most of your questions. I especialy like the Miyazaki quote because it kind of illustrates the relationship Mako and Korra have now, in my opinion.
But I saw it. I'm really happy about the ending. With something that I grew up so close to, I want to cry.
It's my wall, I do what I want! lol.
I'm sad to see it go, but I also kinda feel like, I'm ready for it to be over and for Bryke to move onto another, I'm sure, awesome project. It's been going for so long and we've all kinda grew up along with it, so it feels bittersweet but good.
Oh, I didn't even realize it was your wall. I thought it was a thread. Holy crap.
So, i looked up what pansexual means, and it seems to describe my thoughts about Ellie. However, it also said that pansexual people can be attracted to anything... I don't think that she would be attracted to a 60 year old person or somebody very young... What i am trying to say is that Ellie's romantical relationships are limited to people of her age. Also, the term pansexual is also used for somebody feeling a sexual attraction towards animals and objects. So i don't think that Ellie is like that.
Yeah, and i thing that Ellie is LGBT.
First of all, i have to say that i do not have definite proof for anything, It's just how I feel that that is how Ellie feels.
However, I do have a few thoughts about this.
First of all, something that would indicate that she would be a lesbian, is that we really haven't seen her doing things with boys in American dreams and Left Behind. And we also knowthat Ellie got into fights with boys very often (and girls too for that matter). However, seing her and Sam i thought that Ellie doesn't dislkie boys.
And that is when i though that she simply dislikes people with a cocky/stupid behaviour. And it just happens to be that boys are more often like that than girls...
Also, Ellie rarely showed any kind of immediate affection to anyone (except Sam maybe, but that was just because she hadn't had a friend since a long time). So Ellie never likes or dislkies people she doesn't know because of their gender/race/phisical appearance before she doesn't get to know them. To be completely fair, Ellie didn't have many friends... In the beginning of American Dreams Ellie was very unfriendly towards Riley even though Riley was trying to befirend her. Also, it looked like Ellie grew to like and love Riley over the course of many months. So she is definetily not the person to love or like someone because of their appearence.
Overall, i think that Ellie is like that because she hasn't shown many tendencies towards any gender. However, you could argue that Ellie kissed Riley, but my thoughts are that Ellie just loved Riley because she has such a wonderful character and they got on so well. So the main reason for Ellie's affection towards her is her character, and she just happened to be a girl.
PS: I think that the main reason why some people are in denial about Ellie being lesbian or bi is because, even though the game did so well not to "sexualise" her (can you say that?), some people still saw her as sexy (their words, not mine). For example there were quite a few "fan"made pictures of Ellie in a sexual way. I find that quite disturbing, because how could you think of her in such a way, when the game makes you have so intense fatherly feelings for her... And those people can't deal with Ellie being gay because that would not be consistent with their inapropriate thoughts of Ellie.
However (and i am just saying this to be completely honest), i would love to meet a girl that is like Ellie in my life, just because she has such a wonderful character (tell me if that's creepy)...
Oh God, haha, I didn't know that the definition of Pansexual was that broad, lol. Whoops. Nevermind.
Like a lot of people have said, it's hard to slap a label on anybody, because human sexuality is complicated and often fluid and all of that. I always though a Kinsey scale was a better way for people to describe something like this personally, but people hardly ever use it in regualr conversation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinsey_scale).
Its hard to know for sure because it's not like being a lesbian means that you have no close friends who are guys or anything, so I don't think Ellie's friendship with Sam isn't really proof of anything either way. Sexual orientation isn't necessarily just about appearance, it also includes things like character qualities and a whole bunch of other factors. Of course, if you're a lesbian, you're not just gonna fall for any ol' girl, you're gonna look for someone you connect with. Overall, I feel like unless we get more information (like we get as new game starring Ellie where she's in a relationship with a man) I'm gonna just take that kiss at face value and come to the conclusion that she's most likely gay (possibly bi, but again, we don't really know.) Just like I assume Joel is straight, because of him being married and all to sarah's mom, but he could technically possibly be bi.
I think my viewpoint also in small part comes from when Neil did an AMA on reddit, he mentioned something along the lines of how with Ellie, he had an "evil" plan to make her the most awesome, non-sexualized game character ever. So, he's not the kind of guy who's against trying to make social progress in gaming with his characters. So I could just picture him saying "yeah, she's gay too, deal with it, trolls!" with the whole kiss, haha.
You're taking a very nuanced approach to this, which is great. A lot of people are clearly uncomfortable with this, and you can see it in their black and white gay=bad, straight=good vibes in their comments. It's sad. Yeah, I hope that most of the people who are like this are just frustrated 12 year olds who are upset that a character they may have developed a bit of a crush on may hypothetically never be interested in them (nevermind she's not real, lol... I won't name names, but you know who they are haha) And I think it's that, comnined with maybe never personally know ing anybody who is LGBT.
And I would love to meet someone like Ellie! We could play videogames and darts together! lol. She's definitely someone I would have wanted to be friends with at that age. You're not creepy lol. I think Neil designed her to be awesome on purpose.
I believe she gets in fights with girls, too. I can imagine her cutting a girl's hair off and stuff. :) That must be why she never had a roommate. She might have gots in fights with some adults too. And boys are cocky and aggressive and I think they probably tried to raped Ellie and she defends herself. Honestly, I think Ellie should be asexual but I still love Ellie and her sassy character. :)
220.127.116.11 wrote: I believe she gets in fights with girls, too. I can imagine her cutting a girl's hair off and stuff. :) That must be why she never had a roommate. She might have gots in fights with some adults too. And boys are cocky and aggressive and I think they probably tried to raped Ellie and she defends herself. Honestly, I think Ellie should be asexual but I still love Ellie and her sassy character. :)
I am 99% sure that nobody tried to rape Ellie at the military school. otherwise she would probably have a huge aggresion towards men... I don't think that Ellie is asexual, because of how she expressed herself towards Riley.
Maybe we will find out more about Ellie in The Last Of Us 2 (hopefully there will be one) :)
Yeah, i love how Neil Druckmann and Bruce Straley don't care about how people think that their characters should be. It is the same with Bill.
Never heard about the Kinsey scale before... It seems like a more detailed description of people's sexuality, but i don't think that many people will use it very often...
I just love that there are no stereotype-characters in The Last Of Us. The characters are what makes the game so great.
I just love that there are no stereotype-characters in The Last Of Us. The characters are what makes the game so great.
Yeah that's what I love about Naughty Dog games in general!
What did you think about Left Behind, besides the whole kiss thing? I really liked it and loved all the creative, non-combat gameplay they put in there (like just walking around, exploring and interacting with stuff.)
And I was really sad when the whole bite thing happened, because Riley only got bitten because she was trying to save Ellie :( . So that definitely added to the guilt that Ellie feels about Riley.
Left Behind was great :) I was also glad that we got to see Joel again (it would have been even better if he would have had some dialogue...). Walking around the mall was really cool. The only thing i missed was the beautiful places that were overtaken by nature.
So, you have complained about me on the thread. And if you want to say something in particular, it would be better if we wouldn't get off-topic...
I just want to say why i think that Ellie doesn't have to leave Joel because i somehow feel the need to do so (just n one or two sentences, i don't want to make this too long).
Over the course of the game, Ellie has grown to love (or at least really care for) Joel. They have been through so much. And i believe that there is a really strong bond that connects them, one like Ellie has never had before. And probably this is just me, but i feel like that if Ellie would really hate Joel, then their whole Journey would really have been for nothing (except for Ellie's character development).
After the Winter sequence, we see that Joel and Ellie had already decided that they will have a life together after the whole thing is over. Clearly, Ellie still really cared about Joel, and i don't think that the events that happened could have colmpletely shattered their relationship.
And i apologize for repeating myself and not being able to express my opinion correctly (hope that doesn't sound sarcastic). But in my eyes, it makes sense that Ellie would stay wth Joel. And believe me, i do read every post on how the opinions of other people are, and i do resepct these opinions.
Ps: In the Ellie hates Joel... thread i accidentaly made a typo. I think that i wrote about answering a question, it said: "You 't actually meant to be answered again". Don't know how that happened... However, i wanted to say that that question was NOT meant to be answered (the one that you complained about).
So in future, i'll try to explain my opinions better. But I'll not always suceed. Over the months, i have enjoyed writing comments in the thread. But when it comes to more complicated explanations, i don't express myself as well as some others (such as you, Astorr and Winterlotus).
Honestly, i think that you have overreacted. And it is just really unnecessary to be aggresive with these things
I don't think that i have repeated myself (asked the same question) so incredibly many times (as you seem to think). Finally, i will at least try to write better explanations. But i really don't want someone getting really annoyed because they got the meaning wrong (because of a bad explanation).
And sorry for writing such a long post now. I just feel unomfortable if i don't get things straight with you. Because i don't think that all of your critisism is completely justified.
Thanks for writing this. I often forget that English is your second language, because you really do write it very well! I was just letting you know, from a native English speaker, how you may be coming across. I don't think that you meant to come across as annoying at all. Also, I didn't mean to come across as aggressive or anything, but looking at my comment now, it was a little too biting. Sorry. I think we can all say that we're a bit tired/ frustrated with that thread LOL.
Hey thanks for the question! Well, I guess I see Joel as a deeply flawed person with a lot of underlying pain and anger. I think that this recipe makes him a dangerous individual. He doesn't cope well with things not going his way- he often resorts to violence. In a lot of cases this is more understandable, like when Ellie was kidnapped (although he was disgustingly brutal there.) But then you look at the scene with Tommy talking about him taking Ellie, and Joel immediately gets violent once he realizes that Tommy doesn't want to go along with his plan. And that line from Tommy "I got nothing but nightmares from those years," of Joel taking care of him maybe indicates that Joel was an unhinged, possibly violent person even before Sarah and the outbreak.
I also think he doesn't cope well with being alone. He needs someone to cling to to bring the best out in him (like Ellie.) Or, surrounded by the wrong people, the worst can come out in him (like when he ran with a group of hunters.) He's obviously lost so much (Sarah, and his life with her), and I think he feels that the world has taken these things from him. So, he's just abandoned any warmth or attachment to it. I mean, he literally NEVER was on board with the vaccine idea. He just doesn't care at all about the possiblity of something like that halpin the rest of the world, ebcause he's completely detached from it emotionally. This is probably to protect himself from pain, as well as to keep from confronting the unsavory things he's done.
Despite this, he also has the ability for warmth and love as well. We see this obviously with Ellie, and also with Tess I think to a lesser degree. Just the way he obviously respected her and I think tried to "settle down" with her (but she brushed him off) as I recall. But overall, I think that the reason that Joel has survived for so long is because he was the type of person willing to do the "tough" things other people may not in order to survive.
Yeah, i guess that there are not many survivors who aren't willing to do the "though" stuff.
I have to disagree with you regarding Joel being violent before the outbreak. I really don't think that there was anything like that when he lived with Sarah. But after the outbreak, he did anything to survive. I think that he did all these horrible things in order to survive. When Tommy said "I got nothing but nighmares from those years", i think that he was reffering to the time when they were hunters. And the brother that Tommy knew turned into a person who did ANYTHING to survive. Joel was a really good father and i refuse to believe that he was violent when he raised Sarah (you can call me ignorant if you want to).
Baiscally, the Joel that Tommy knew before the outbreak died with Sarah. But when Tommy saw Joel with Ellie, i think that he recognized that Joel was slowly becomming his "real" self again (like he was before the outbreak). What do you think about that?
The Joel that we saw in the beginning of the game was probably a nicer Joel than he was when he was a hunter. I like to believe that after Tommy left him (or maybe earlier) Joel tried to become an a little better person.
By the way: I don't know if Joel tried to settle down with Tess, i mean in a relationship. They were talking about stopping to smuggle things (The laying low conversation). And Joel said that Tess would always get him back into the business... Though it is possible that Joel had a relationship with her at ne point. Maybe he didn't want to get too attached to her because he feared that if he did, he couldn't cope with it if he would loose her.
I read this one thing on Tess's wiki page:
"Her trust in and loyalty towards Joel runs deep. However, secretly, she questions whether Joel shares the same emotions that she feels for him."
It says that that was said by a guy from Naughty Dog. Does that mean that Tees questions if Joel likes or maybe even loves Tess the way that she likes or even loves him. What do you think that that means?
Ps: Just tell me if you don't want to talk about this for so long...
You know, you've made me realize I'm being too hard on Joel. I think I was letting "survivor Joel" effect my opinion of just Joel as a person . But yeah I really don't think he was violent before the outbreak, and I actually really liked his relationship with Sarah. In that opening scene, you could tell that hey had a really laid back, healthy father-daughter relationship (it even reminded me of me and my dad.)
And yeah you're right about the Tommy conversation. That makes a lot more sense. But at the same time, I think Tommy saying that may mean he didn't like what he saw Joel do/become during that time (like you said, he became a survivor.) Yeah I don't think he was violent before the outbreak, I think I meant to say more "tempermental" and then obviously that was magnified after the outbreak.
And about Joel becoming his "real" self again... I dunno, it depends how you look at it. I'm of the mind that people's true nature comes out when they're placed in extraordinary situations. So, I dunno if I'd say any Joel is the "true" Joel, more that Ellie and being a father brings out the best in Joel and supresses the more unsavory aspects of his character.
And I can understand Joel's detachment from the rest of the world because he's had so much taken away from him. But then, that fact made it dangerous for him to be in that hospital (for the rest of humanity, at least.) I mean, we know Joel so well as a character from our perspective in the game, so he's very sympathetic to us. But, I don't necessarily think that excuses things like becoming a hunter and all of that. I mean, there are plenty of people who "survive" in TLOU without killing innocent people.
And about Tess, that's true, they may have just been talking about the smuggling. But, I mean they lived together, and when Tess is telling them to go after becoming infected, she says "there has to be enough here that you feel some sort of obligation to me." I saw that as indicating that they had some sort of romantic relationship, at least in the past. I always thought that they maybe tried to be together but maybe Joel was too emotionally distant or something and they decided to just have a professional partnership. But from your quote I guess she'd still have feelings for him. I always saw their relationship as kinda "it's complicated."
I also always liked to believe that Joel and Tess had a relationhip at some point.
You're right, i actually ment that Joel became more like he was before the outbreak (his best self)
There are many people that survive without having to do bad things. But i like to think that all the bad things that Joel did were almost always neccesary for him to survive (i like to think the best of Joel...). I guess that Joel either didn't make it to a Quarantine Zone or the miitary maybe didn't let any new people into the QZ. So probably Joel did all these bad things in order to keep himself and Tommy alive, and he would have died if he hadn't done these things (just my opinion).
Joel probably should have let Ellie die... but honestly, i'm glad that he didn't let her die. Even though i know that it was the wrong decision, i would have done the same thing.
By the way: I don't think that Tess and Joel ever lived together.
Hey, i won't be able to reply for a few days because i am going to Paris and Brussels with my school. So i'll probably reply on saturday or sunday.
But i would like to continue to discuss this theme with you when i'm back :)
Oooh, that sounds fun! I actually went on that same trip when I was in high school with a school club. I love those two cities! I love Paris especially- I like to think that I'm a chic French girl at heart, haha. Have fun!
And that's true. The thing is, we don't really know what Joel did during those years, specifically, so it is hard to judge him by that. But wedo know that he did something like the blockade trap, so he did actually target innocent people. To me, that goes beond "surviving" and becomes something worse. The intent and premediation make it worse to me. Like, if someone's guilty of murder (in the US at least), if it's determined that they planned to do it ahead of time, it's considered a much worse offense.
And I'm glad that he didn't let Ellie die! I didn't want her to die either, but that's just because of the perspective of the story. I mean, it's not like Ellie and Joel are the only "good" people left deserving of happiness, there are lots of people like that in the world of TLOU that would have really appreciated a vaccine. You say Joel's actions are justifyable under "survival" but why not sacrificing one kid to "save humanity?" Doesn't that qualify as something humanity has to do in order to survive?
And I guess I assumed that they lived in that apartment that she comes into during that first scene after the prologue. But yeah, I guess that may have just been Joel's apartment.
Did I come off as sexist in my post about GTA V? I explained to Mikey that that wasn't my intention. Klock101 seemed to think so also. My point was that games like that promote sexism and evil in this world and to see garbage like GTA V get a 10 along with The Last of Us was disheartening. I don't play a lot of games but I know that I like games like TLOU over trash like GTA. Obviously the game is targeted for men and that's why I do find the game horrible because of all the "manly" themes it contains. And then Mikey pulled the "escapism" card. What people escape into can tell a lot about the person though. And I know video games are just video games, but video games breed hatred and sexism and racism in the world. Video games make it fun and "rewarding" to be bad (if you're playing a criminal in GTA). I feel the same way about movies like The Hangover and stuff. I find it a complete turn off for guys to be into that stuff. Bottom line, it's what they find entertaining and fun and in a lot of ways it can relate to things they allow for in their lives, or they lack morals in certain areas because what they expose themselves to makes them see it as okay or fun. Desensitized. That's the word. Men in our world are very desensitized to a lot of matters because of games, tv, movies, etc. that glorify these things. And that's why GTA V's rating upsets me greatly.
Well, I don't think you came off as sexist, just really strongly opinionated haha. I think the issue was just that the thread might come off as insulting to other users who enjoy those games. Like, people (not just you- I think he had problems with some other contributors comments) on the thread were critisizing the people who play GTA rather than just the game itself, which I guess violates the forum rules. But yeah, we can discuss it on my wall!
I dunno, I don't feel as strongly as you about how harmful GTA is, I mean, I know some pretty well-adjusted people who play those games, probably wouldn't date them though, haha (I don't know if I'd call it "evil", haha.) But yeah, like you, I think that they're sexist and I think they'd be harmful to "impressionable youths" who shouldn't be playing those games anyway, but we all know they do. I mean, just looking at the advertising images says this. And I know that yeah, big surprise, gangsters don't tend to respect women, but there's a difference between showing sexism for cultural/historical accuracy and promoting/reveling in it. GTA seems to do the latter while saying they do the former, which is really my problem with it. Which is disappointing, because I thought Red Dead Redemption (also by Rockstar Games who makes GTA) did a good job of making a "manly" game about a cowboy living in a "man's world," while still showing interesting/strong female characters who, gasp!, were respected by the male protagonist and weren't love interests! My point being, you can make a "masculine" manly game without devaluing or insulting women in the process. It seems like GTA just isn't interested in doing that. Which is a real shame. I think that just the huge scope of the world and freedom in the game is why it's so popular, rather than the storyline. But I do agree I find the whole "rewarding" of terrible things like running over people and whatnot to just be really immature. Like, a 12 year old would maybe find that amusing, but a grown adult? It's like, a game for adults with the mentality of a 12 year old. Which is really weird.
I don't know about saying that men today are desensitized. I guess I'd go further and say people in general are, really. I mean, I talk to older people and they're all appalled by Lady Gaga or something, and I'm like "really?!" We're a pretty unshockable generation. But I think in general we're the most tolerant, unbigoted generation so far. And I know plenty of sensitive dudes, but maybe that's just cuz I'm in art school haha.
Yea.. I guess I am opinionated about it, lol. Just the immaturity of the game, like you said "the mentality of a 12 year old for adults" I guess is what bugs me. And it got such a high rating for that immaturity. SEE! And why wouldn't you date a guy that plays games like GTA?? Because it tells you that they're immature! Right? Or did I miss your point?.. >.> I don't want to put words in your mouth.
You're right, I can tell the difference between crime/sexism/racism for historical accuracy and reveling in it and GTA is more of promoting it and showing it as a "fun" escape and it's not. Yea see I don't know a lot about Red Dead but by the sound of it, it seems like they were able to make a great game without being immature. Which is shocking that the same company made it but maybe two entirely different people/groups of people within the company made it? Who knows.
And yes! I agree! That must be it. The scope of the game must be why it got a 10.. it's overall "more entertaining" and I think that's like the bare minimum factor in determining a game's rating. Well, for as little scope that TLOU had, its amazing storyline picked up the "slack" that supposedly GTA is (and has always been) praised for.
I guess that's why I find it a huge turn-off for guys to play BECAUSE of its immaturity and that adult men play it. I don't know, Call of Duty/Battlefield and games like that don't bother me too much because it's war and sort of based on historical accuracy in a way. Like those games seem to be more mature in theme and content. Games like Final Fantasy and stuff don't bother me either because that's like watching Star Wars or Lord of the Rings or something; it's just magical, fantasy creatures/people. Games like Lara Croft I don't like because it degrades women and I find it highly immature and men say that it's an empowering game for women -_-. GTA/Duke Nukem/Saints Row are all based on crime, sex, violence, drugs and that's real world stuff that's made to look fun and it's just not something I can even begin to accept as okay to be on the market. I never have but.. I know it's out there and I just find it completely upsetting that guys like it. And they don't seem like men I would want to date. In Red Dead and Assassin's Creed there are prostitutes but it's not a major part of the game. They're used in the storyline and for historical accuracy (while I can't help but feel the game throws them in there to get guys attention unfortunately) but they don't overindulge in it and in Assassin's Creed you don't interact with them - they're just there (if I remember correctly) and in Red Dead (if I was told correctly) you can choose to cheat on your wife. But at least they make the situation a test of morals you know? It gives the character a choice to cheat on his wife or not with a prostitute or something. I give the game credit for placing weight on the situation. But in GTA there's no moral boundaries or anything and it's gross..
Yeah you're right.. I shouldn't have just said men. It just seems like men are so desensitized to violence and sex and crime and most women aren't. We still are shocked and gasp at news reports of violence for example while guys are like "eh." Men also want sex all the time, every second of the day, and women want like.. a loving sexual relationship. So women seem to take sex a lot more seriously where many guys end up cheating and find sex to be a game - "oh how many girls can I get tonight." I RARELY see a guy ever taken aback by things like that, where women usually are. But you're right.. our whole generation overall is densensitized to a lot of that stuff.
Awww! I need to go to art school ;) In what ways are they sensitive? Have you dated any?? :)
Yeah that's basically what I was saying. Most of the guys I know who play those games (anecdotal evidence, I know) are pretty immature, albeit harmless, guys. But yeah, not on my dating radar, haha. And I just feel like as long as immature games like GTA are getting perfect, "masterpiece" scores, the general public will continue to not take games seriously as a narrative art form, which makes me sad.
And you're right, Red Dead and GTA were probably made by different "teams" within the same company, or at least had different people in charge of the story and stuff. And I agree games like GTA making crime stuff like killing hookers seem "fun" is just kinda dumb and it makes me sad that teenaged boys, who are still developing their views on women, would maybe be negatively influenced by them. Like you said, there's a difference between things like prostitutes being in a game for historical accuracy, and them being there as a "toy" that the game is basically telling you to mess around with. This is a pretty interesting article on the whole GTA "having their cake and eating it too" as far as the sexism: http://kotaku.com/grand-theft-auto-v-and-women-1344112808.
I think a lot of guys posture and try to act all tough and "meh" at stuff, but really they do care. Guys get put under a lot of social pressure to hide their emotions. And there's usually a big difference between the type of locker room talk and how they really feel (this is all like, teenaged boy stuff- if you're a grown man, then this stuff is much less tolerable.) And I don't know about you, but I want sex all the time too, haha. Not really, but I think girls want sex just as much as guys, we just are encouraged not to talk about it.
And I dunno, I think just being in college has exposed me to some great guys (maybe it's that testosterone leveling out.) I guess they're sensitive just in that they're not obnoxious, haha. But I've met some great guys who are kind and considerate, repsect me and the work that I do. Haven't dated any within the art school... yet, haha.
Yeah and my ex was into GTA and all that.. and he was extremely immature. Go figure why it ended right? I didn't break up with him over GTA, lol. That's not what I'm saying. We broke up 4 months ago, but he was highly immature with his life and the relationship. He never took things seriously and his friends are equally childish. I'm just saying it comes as no surprise that he likes GTA, lol.
You're right, that's exactly why it angered me. GTA didn't deserve a masterpiece rating at all. I was like "are you KIDDING me??" I believe I said that out loud to my computer, lol. I honestly believe that TLOU changed my view about video games. I am so much interested in playing different games now - ones with storylines of course. That's why Bioshock Infinite is on my list lol because I had heard it was really good. And I was never into video games that much before. I mean I liked Kingdom Hearts, but because it was mystical/magical/fantasy I didn't take a whole lot from it. But The Last of Us presents a lot of real-life relatable themes and it just changed my opinion about video games completely.
Thanks for taking the time to talk about this with me. I'm glad you feel similarly to how I do. Mikey does too. I guess I generalized the public, but again I feel like the majority of people into games like GTA, Saints Row, and all that have poor taste.
Thank you for the article! It was very interesting. :)
That's true, grown men are usually more mature and physically avoid/speak up about things that aren't tolerable, whereas a lot of younger guys don't. And they act "meh" like you said. LOL you go girl! :P You're absolutely right.. I believe girls DO want it just as much as men. *blushes* It sucks we aren't encouraged to talk about it :( I mean.. not in like an inappropriate way. But like.. I've talked about this with people before, but I honestly believe that a lot of sex problems in couples' bedrooms are the result of women feeling like they can't/shouldn't communicate with their boyfriends/spouses about what they want to make them erm.. "feel good." [Sorry to any of the moderators reading this. I hope we don't get banned!] Like they feel like they should "act like a lady" and not talk about that stuff when it's natural for women to want it too. I feel like couples would connect better if women would open up more and allow themselves to express what they want. I think the gentlemen would love to know what their women would want. Men want to take care of their lady after all, right?? :P ;)
How old are you if I may ask? I'm looking forward to meeting these mature guys and I wanna know what age I'm looking at, LOL. I'm 23 and my ex was 21.. sooooo I made a mistake there. Granted that age is but a number and maturity is the result of life experiences and all that.. but my ex REALLY fit the "immature for his age" bill. He acted like his age, so. I know for the future to date older men. Awww, take advantage of that girl! Best of luck! ;)
Yeah not to be presumptuous and all, but there seems to be a correlation here, haha. And that's really awesome that TLOU changed the way you view games! That's why I think we need less games like GTA and more like TLOU- because games like TLOU change people's minds about game's potential to tell real, quality, thought-provoking stories. GTA is just the prototypical "parent's nightmare" immature game. And that's not to say that I'm like so above "immature" entertainmanet or anything. Like, I love watching Adventure Time, for instance, but that show doesn't pretty much openly hate an entire gender so...
And the whole rating discrepancy thing just highlights that really, there needs to be more of a "standard," of critiquing videogames. I dunno. But it's hard because as you said, some games are just for fun gameplay, wheras some games like TLOU are more focused on characters and narrative. But really, it seems like GTA 5 won't be really remembered 10 years from now, whereas TLOU will. That's what a masterpiece really is, you know?
And haha, I agree! Communication just makes everything better, in life in general. And I think back to the stereotype that men just "can't understand" women, they're so complicated and men are so simple, blah (which is really insulting to men too, imo.) Stupid and untrue, but really, that stereotype probably stems from women generally feeling like they can't talk about stuff like this.
And I'm 21! So same age a your Ex haha. Most of them are around my age, some are a bit older since art programs especially tend to have more diversity in ages just because some people come back to school to get their degree. But yeah bascially those I was thinking about were around my age (21-24.) And that's true, age is but a number! But at the same time, people do so much growing up in their 20's (some more than others, obvs) that sometimes a difference of just a year or two can make a huge difference in maturity level and stuff. And yeah maybe this time you should go older! And haha thanks! Most of them tend to already have girlfriends, so I have that to contend with, lol.
"Like, I love watching Adventure Time, for instance, but that show doesn't pretty much openly hate an entire gender so..."
LOL! That's cool! Yea I know what you mean! I honestly watch Disney Channel all the time and that's not because I'm immature but I like how innocent it is and a lot of the content is actually pretty clever and makes me laugh (even though the shows are for younger minds). You're right, these shows we like don't glorify "bad" stuff even though they're funny and entertaining because they're kind of childish in general :P
yeah I told that to Mikey too! GTA won't be remembered.. in fact that's why they can pump out a new GTA every year or so because it always need upgrading to keep its fanbase, whereas TLOU has forever-fans even if a sequel were never made. It's legacy will live on, and GTA's legacy falls short and that's why they keep coming up with new versions of pretty much the same thing. It's just set in different locations, lol.
Yea I hate that stereotype too! I do think it's degrading toward men too to say that can't/don't want to understand women. Or that they're so simple. Are you kidding me? Joel was a super complex character! The fact that men tend to hide their emotions makes them complicated. I read/heard somewhere that men are more likely to suffer emotional and mental disorders because they're less likely than women to go to therapists and psychologists for help. It must be because they feel like they have to be tough all the time and that displaying emotions is a sign of weakness or something, I don't know. I pretty much know for a fact that my ex isn't discussing his breakup with me to his friends.. I know he's bottling up his feelings and dealing with it all on his own. I heard a lot of men deal with painful things internally, just like Joel. That's probably why it's manifested into the man he turned out to be - very cold, and distant. So yeah, no. Men are just as complicated as women.
I'm sorry! I didn't mean to say anything about being 21! >.< I hope you didn't take it that way! Girls tend to be.. more mature in general. I had no idea you were 21, but also like I said, I know maturity is based off of the person and their experiences and how they deal with those experiences. You hear stories of children raising themselves while the parents are out getting drunk and ruining their lives - in those cases the children are more mature than the parents. My best friend is an example of that. She's getting married to her first love from high school and they've been together for 7 years and her mom has had drinking problems and hasn't been able to keep a relationship for very long. So my friend is much more mature than her own mother. So I know maturity isn't reflected in age necessarily, I was just saying that my ex is very immature for his age. yeah you're right, that people do grow up a lot in their 20's! I know this is random, but I also wanted to say that I think you're very smart. And I like your opinions and stuff that's why I look forward to what you have to say when I post stuff, haha. And you have awesome grammar and sentence structure too. Sorry if that's a weird comment, but I have definitely taken notice :P
It's okay , I won't tell anyone you watch Disney Channel, haha. And that's okay I didn't take it that you were insulting 21 year olds! Believe me, I know plenty of people my age who are pretty immature. I mean, my school is kind of known for being "bro-ey." And awww, thanks! My English teachers loved me haha. I like hearing your opinions too! And I like that you write even longer posts than me, haha. Anytime you want to discuss something that you don't want to make a topic on the forum for, feel free. I guess your GTA rant was too "edgy" for the forum haha.
Yeah it was always one of my strongest subjects throughout school. I was never one of those kids who freaked out at the thought of having to write an essay or something. My favorite part of Enlgish class wasn't so much the writing, but the literary analysis. Not a big surprise, haha. And since I'm an artist I guess I'm naturally curious about the creators intent and whatnot. And I really... don't read a lot, haha. I mean, I only actually sit down to read a book a few times a year. I mean, I guess I read a lot if you count things like articles and stuff. I used to have to read a lot for school, but now I don't have any classes that require me to read anything but textbooks.
Yeah! I love doing literary/movie/article analyses. A few times a year?? That's more than I read! :P Do you find reading books to be kind of boring or nothing has sparked your interest lately? Or do you not have time? I was just curious. :P Yeah same here. One of my favorite classes was English Literature and we read like 4 or 5 books over the course of the semester and analyzed each one. It was a very interesting class. One of the books we had to read was World War Z and I didn't get a chance to finish it but I guess I read enough to get the assignment done. So I've been rereading it. That's the last book I read. What about you? Yeah same here! I feel like all I read nowadays are textbooks.
P.S. if my grammar or spelling is ever wrong, feel free to correct me. I will not be offended :P
Haha by a few I meant like 2... Or 1, sometimes. And I dunno, I have a hard time just starting books. It's a big time commitment! So I just end up never starting them. And that's so weird that you read World War Z in your literature class, but I guess it was actually a serious novel, right? The title just has always made me think it was intentionally cheesey or something.
The last book I read was during the summer, called "Going After Cacciato" by Tim O'brien. It's about these soldiers who go on this journey pursuing a comrade who goes MIA during the Vietnam War, but it's not like a typical "war novel" because it blends reality and the fantasies of the main character. I really liked it! I read it because I'd really liked another of O'brien's novels that I had to read in high school (called The Things They Carried.) But yeah, nowadays I'm reading dumb textbooks, haha.
And I really don't care about other people's grammar, haha. I'm not one of those "grammar nazis." Otherwise I'd never be able to get through one of Sahar's posts...
Yeah it's a pretty serious novel! Each chapter contains "first-hand accounts" of different people's experience with zombies, but each chapter overall explains the progress of the war against zombies. It's VERY interesting anf serious. Yes, don't let the title fool you! :P
Ohh I will have to read those! They sound really cool :)